Truth without Scripture? (reject, Moses, Torah, disciples, church)

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Well, it's impossible to know God without scripture.

Originally Posted by goraya15

One must definitely have scripture to realize truth.

Yet Abraham had no scriptures, and both the Christian and the Muslim scriptures say that he knew God.

[Mister Emu]

Do you believe this kind of personal revelation from Deity actually occurs in, for want of a better term for it, "everyday life"?

I have no idea...

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Yet Abraham had no scriptures, and both the Christian and the Muslim scriptures say that he knew God.

In those days, God spoke directly to people, and even presented Himself bodily because there were no Scriptures.

Really, if you were a Christian, you know the answeres to these points.

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

On numbers, see Wikipedia:

Numbers involved in the Exodus

Exodus 12:37 refers to 600,000 adult Hebrew men leaving Egypt with Moses, plus an unspecified but apparently large number of non-Hebrews ("A mixed multitude also went up with them" - Exodus 12:38); allowing for women and children, the total number involved may have been two million or more.[1] Egypt at the time might have supported a total population of around 3-4 million, maybe even up to 6 million,[2] although Napoleon estimated a only 3 million when he invaded in 1798; in any event, the numbers given in Exodus 12:37 seem to represent something between half and almost the entire probable population of Egypt.

The logistics of the Exodus also present problems. A simple calculation shows that a group of 3 million walking 10 abreast with 6 ft between rows would extend for around 340 miles (3,000,000 / 10 * 6 = 1,800,000 ft. = 340 mi). The "very many cattle, both flocks and herds" which accompanied the fleeing Hebrews, plus straggling children and the elderly, would have increased this distance. Recent archaeological research has found no evidence that the Sinai desert ever hosted millions of people, nor of a massive population increase in Canaan, estimated to have had a population of between 50,000 and 100,000, at the end of the march.[3]

Hebrew University professor Abraham Malamat points out that the Bible often refers to 600 and its multiples, as well as 1,000 and its multiples, typologically in order to convey the idea of a large military unit. "The issue of Exodus 12:37 is an interpretive one. The Hebrew word eleph can be translated 'thousand,' but it is also rendered in the Bible as 'clans' and 'military units.' There are thought to have been 20,000 men in the entire Egyptian army at the height of Egypt's empire. And at the battle of Ai in Joshua 7, there was a severe military setback when 36 troops were killed." Therefore if one reads alaphim (plural of eleph) as military units, the number of Hebrew fighting men lay between 5,000 and 6,000. In theory, this would give a total Hebrew population of less than 20,000, something within the range of historical possibility.

It is not unlikey for there to have been 2 million people for several reasons:


1. The U.S., for example, has gone from 3 million people in 1783 to 300 million people in 2007. The Israelites had 400 years to have children, and people had more children in those days.
2. The Egyptians were threatened by them, and if there were only around 20,000 people, there would be no reason to be so. They were threatened because the Israelite 2 million to the Egyptian 3-6 million was a significant fraction of the population.
3. The fact that they were able to conquer Canaan. How could a mere 20,000 people completely displace a civilization?

On what they saw:

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

But all they really saw, according to the account, was lightning and smoke.

True. But that was proof enough. A cloud over a mountain where Moses had gone to talk to God? A bit conspicuous.

Then, of course, there were divine acts that the entire nation was witness to.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Well, the same book from which you get your salvation says a whole lot of other things:

So you get your salvation from a book? That's handy; you can keep it in your pocket and just look at it when you feel like it, and you never have to worry about whether or not it's looking at you.

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by Quagmire

So you get your salvation from a book? That's handy; you can keep it in your pocket and just look at it when you feel like it,

That Book is God's word.

and you never have to worry about whether or not it's looking at you.

Not the Book itself -but the Holy Spirit who dwells within me may speak to me through the Book.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

That Book is God's word.

I thought reality was God's word.

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Not the Book itself -but the Holy Spirit who dwells within me may speak to me through the Book.

So this thing is inside you, but it needs to go through a book to talk to you?

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by Quagmire

I thought reality was God's word.

God's word is reality.

So this thing is inside you, but it needs to go through a book to talk to you?

Pretty much. The manner of speaking's a bit blasphemous, but that's close enough...