Truth without Scripture? (reject, Moses, Torah, disciples, church)

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by Arrow

How did Moses know that God was God and not someone else? For instance, Mohammed (spelling?) claimed to see an angel same with Joseph Smith, and same with many other religions I am sure.

There's a huge difference.

Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.
Mohammed claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.

With Moses and his dealings with God, there were witnesses: two million Jews.

Moses was the writer of the Torah right? So how did he know that what he was writing was truth and not a bunch of lies? Same goes for the disciples.

Well, with Moses, God dictated every word.

With the disciples, they had plenty of evidence (take Paul) that God existed. The Holy Spirit inspired them what to write.

Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture? I realize that this opens into other questions, but lets try to not focus on those. Thanx

Well, it's impossible to know God without scripture.

[goraya15]

One must definitely have scripture to realize truth. If not, what was the point of God sending it down in the first place? To attempt to find Truth, about God especially, without a guideline of practice and true doctrine sent down in the form of a divine book, only sets you up to become a highly philosophical ponderer, and eventually down the road will lead to the degradation in even your belief in God. SO...scripture is important. Hold fast to it, no matter what your creed. Read it YOURSELF, ask questions, pray, and inshallah, God will guide you.

[goraya15]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.
Mohammed claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.

With Moses and his dealings with God, there were witnesses: two million Jews.

Well, with Moses, God dictated every word.

A few inaccuracies here...

First off, there are many instances in the Holy Prophet Mohammad's life where his close companions also saw angels that came to deliver messages to him. So, there were witnesses.

Second, you don't mention if there are witnesses to Moses seeing angels. And I hardly believe that 2 million Jews witness to Moses receiving revelation. The Torah was also not written by moses, but by many, many rabbis and scholar's, who put together their individual accounts and writings together to form the Torah. So no, it was dictated by God word for word, and on that account, neither was the New Testament. The ONLY book claiming to be a word for word account of God Himself is the Holy Qur'an.

[Luke_17:2]

Originally Posted by goraya15

A few inaccuracies here...

First off, there are many instances in the Holy Prophet Mohammad's life where his close companions also saw angels that came to deliver messages to him. So, there were witnesses.

Close companions?

How many? How close? Would the lie for him?

Even 500 people who claim to have seen Jesus after His crucifixtion were not close friends, and there were respectable people among them.

Second, you don't mention if there are witnesses to Moses seeing angels. And I hardly believe that 2 million Jews witness to Moses receiving revelation.

The Pentateuch was dictated by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai -and the entire Nation of Israel (2 million people) at the bottom of the mountain were aware of it.

Not to mention the divine interventions: manna, the red sea, etc.

The Torah was also not written by moses, but by many, many rabbis and scholar's, who put together their individual accounts and writings together to form the Torah.

The Torah, which is the 5 books of law which are the part of the Bible called the Pentateuch, was written by Moses. Period.

So no, it was dictated by God word for word, and on that account, neither was the New Testament. The ONLY book claiming to be a word for word account of God Himself is the Holy Qur'an.

Yes it was dictated by God word for word.

Secondly, the New Testament claims to be written under divine inspiration with the exception of the Gospels whic were narrative accounts, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was dictaed by God the Son to the Apostle John

[Terrywoodenpic]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Close companions?

How many? How close? Would the lie for him?

Even 500 people who claim to have seen Jesus after His crucifixtion were not close friends, and there were respectable people among them.



The Pentateuch was dictated by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai -and the entire Nation of Israel (2 million people) at the bottom of the mountain were aware of it.

Not to mention the divine interventions: manna, the red sea, etc.



The Torah, which is the 5 books of law which are the part of the Bible called the Pentateuch, was written by Moses. Period.



Yes it was dictated by God word for word.

Secondly, the New Testament claims to be written under divine inspiration with the exception of the Gospels whic were narrative accounts, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was dictaed by God the Son to the Apostle John

Do you really believe all that to be true.
I have been a Christian all my life and have never been taught that there was any certainty that any of the scriptures are wholly true, nor any evidence of witnesses to anything.
Faith is one thing, asserting facts is another.

[Luke_17:2]

Well, the same book from which you get your salvation says a whole lot of other things: if some of those things be false, how is the plan of salvation true? How can we be sure?

I really believe all of it.

[Mister Emu]

Why would you say that though?

God can contact whom He will, and pass what information He will onto the person. Thus God could reveal His truth to an individual without the use of scripture.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

God can contact whom He will, and pass what information He will onto the person. Thus God could reveal His truth to an individual without the use of scripture.

Do you believe this kind of personal revelation from Deity actually occurs in, for want of a better term for it, "everyday life"?

[Arrow]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2

Well, it's impossible to know God without scripture.

...what about everyone in between Adam and Moses? And if it was possible for those people then why not have it be plausible after them as well?

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Luke_17:2