biblically speaking, where does life begin? (punishment, blood, creation, Mormonism)

[Mike182]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when3.htm

does life in God's eyes begin at conception, as many Christians believe? or is blood detrimental to life as Doss suggests?

everyone is welcome to comment, but i'd like this to stay biblical if that's alright

[writer]

i'd say Eternal life is without beginning. And without end. Being God.
Which's not created life. But eternal life.
Per the OT and N.
In regard to humanity, human life: collectively it began with Adam.
Although certainly God also had His preadamic creation including living plants and animals and men-like creatures.
Individual human life, according to the Bible, other than Adam and Eve's,
begins w/ conception, fertilization of egg by sperm.
Embryo.
Thanx

[standing_on_one_foot]

It's not entirely clear. I don't think there are any direct references.

There's the passage describing punishment for accidently hurting a pregnant woman, where the punishment is eye-for-eye, life-for-life, and so forth, but the punishment for accidently causing her to miscarry is just a monetary fine. So that would seem to imply a different status for existing life and potential life, and one important enough to be worth mentioning specifically in this case.

On the other hand, there are lines about G-d knowing you before you're born and such. You could make the argument either way.

An interesting little side note is that a word used for "soul" also means "breath." Make of the what you will, but it's not unreasonable to interpret that as a connection between when you start to breath and when you get a soul, as it were. Of course, that particular point won't get you too far, but it is interesting to think about.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mike182

Does life in God's eyes begin at conception, as many Christians believe? or is blood detrimental to life as Doss suggests?

Since it is the spirit that gives the physical body life, and since the spirit can exist as a living, cognizant entity without a physical body, I believe the Bible at least aludes to the idea that we, as living spirits, existed pre-mortally. Mainstream Christianity does not accept this as true doctrine, but Mormonism does. If you'd like to explore this belief further, just say the word.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Since it is the spirit that gives the physical body life, and since the spirit can exist as a living, cognizant entity without a physical body, I believe the Bible at least aludes to the idea that we, as living spirits, existed pre-mortally. Mainstream Christianity does not accept this as true doctrine, but Mornomism does. If you'd like to explore this belief further, just say the word.

totally!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mike182

totally!

Sure thing. Later tonight.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Sure thing. Later tonight.

actually Katz, seeing as i wanted this as biblical debates, and i don't want mormon beliefs hung drawn and quatered over "that's from the BOM, not the Bible!" arguments - could you post it in LDS DIR?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mike182

actually Katz, seeing as i wanted this as biblical debates, and i don't want mormon beliefs hung drawn and quatered over "that's from the BOM, not the Bible!" arguments - could you post it in LDS DIR?

Nope! I almost never use the Book of Mormon to support my beliefs on this forum, and I'm not going to do so this time either. I hope you don't mind if I go ahead and post it here, for that reason. With the exception of my first paragraph, my arguments come strictly from the Bible.

We as Latter-day Saints do not believe in an ex nihilo creation (or a creation out of nothing). We believe that God created our universe out of pre-existing matter, and that He created our spirits out of highly refined matter known as “intelligence,” which can be understood to mean “the light of truth.” This light of truth, according to LDS doctrine, was co-eternal with God, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Once God had created the spirits of all His children, they were privileged to live in His presence for perhaps billions of years. While we don’t know exactly this took place, but we believe that it was prior to the creation of the universe itself.

The Bible describes us, not only as His creations, but as His “offspring”; it refers to Him as the “Father of spirits.” (See Acts 17:28-29 and Hebrews 12:9)

Two or three passages in the Bible allude to the fact that we existed as spirit beings prior to being born into this mortal existence. (My references are from the KJV.)

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 38:7 describes an event that took place in heaven which caused “all the sons of God” (and presumably His daughters, too) to shout for joy. I could go into more detail about what we believe this event to have been, but for the time being will just point out that, as the “offspring” of the “Father of spirits,” we were all among those who shouted for joy.

In Ecclesiastes 12:7, it is said that while our bodies shall return to dust at death, our spirits will return to God. Significant here is the use of the word “return.” Since it is absolutely impossible to return to a place where you have never been before, it is evident that our spirits will be going to our pre-mortal home, to a place we had clearly been at some previous time.

One of the most interesting of all references to our pre-mortal existence is found in John 9:1-2. These verses describe a conversation between Jesus and His disciples. It states, “And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?”

A lot of people miss a very important clue that is found in these verses because they are paying more attention to Jesus’ answer. While his answer is obviously very important, it is on the disciples question that I want to focus. They saw a man who had been born blind, and wondered if his blindness was a punishment for his own sins or for the sins of his parents. Clearly, they were considering the possibility that he was being punished for something he had personally done, and yet if this were the case, when could he have sinned, if not at some time prior to his birth? Interestingly, Jesus responded by telling them that the man’s blindness was not a punishment for anything, but it is significant that He does not correct them with regards to what would have been a flaw in their reasoning if, in fact, the man had not existed prior to his birth. He doesn’t say, “How could this man’s blindness be a punishment for his own sins if he was born blind? He didn’t exist prior to his birth, so when do you suppose he could have sinned?” Had Jesus' followers not been familiar with the idea of a pre-mortal life, it is pretty unlikely that they would have even thought to consider this as an option.

LDS doctrine on this subject is not, incidentally, based on our interpretation of these biblical verses, but on latter-day revelation to living prophets. But I do believe that the Bible offers more evidence in favor of this doctrine than it does against it. It will be interesting to me to see if anyone can come up with any evidence to discredit the LDS belief.

[Comprehend]

Don't forget Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.