Speaking in tongues (ritual, Earth, gospel, translation, elder)

[RRu]

everywhere speaking in tongues is mentioned in the bible it is earthly languages.

why then do some people think it's a "heavenly language"?

is there any clear biblical reference to actually make it doctrine?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by RRu

everywhere speaking in tongues is mentioned in the bible it is earthly languages.

why then do some people think it's a "heavenly language"?

is there any clear biblical reference to actually make it doctrine?

No (not that all of us would need one, only sola scripturalists think that the Bible is the be all and end all of Christian faith). As you say, speaking in tongues in the Bible always seems to mean either speaking in languages you've never learnt or speaking in your own language but others understanding it as though it were their own. This is still what we would refer to as speaking in tongues (and yes it does still happen sometimes).

I'm willing to bet that someone will raise St. Paul's 'though I speak with tongues of men or angels' but my response to that would have to be that they needed some comprehension lessons as the best translation into modern English would 'Even if I were to...' which clearly does not imply that St. Paul ever spoke some angelic language. Personally, I do not believe that the gift of tongues ever ceased (as some do) but nor do I believe it is to be found in what is commonly known as speaking in tongues in charismatic circles. Such practice seems to have much in common with ecstatic pagan religions and little to do with Christianity.

James

[RRu]

plus when angels spoke in the bible it was always within the peoples understanding.

so my understanding of 1 corinthians 13 when Paul says that would be...

"though I could speak all the words in the world, and speak them like an angel"

i'm not trying to change scripture but that is what I believe is what Paul was trying to say. some people just purposely misunderstand it so they can back up their heavinly language.

[JMoum04]

Okay, this might sound really, really ignorant, and if it does, I'm sorry, because I honestly don't know much about speaking in tongues. But does this mean that some random person in church starts speaking in a completely foreign language, like Chinese or something? Do they already know the language when they start speaking it?

[RRu]

Originally Posted by jmoum

Okay, this might sound really, really ignorant, and if it does, I'm sorry, because I honestly don't know much about speaking in tongues. But does this mean that some random person in church starts speaking in a completely foreign language, like Chinese or something? Do they already know the language when they start speaking it?

yes, the biblical gift of speaking in tongue mentions people profeciying to people in a language they don't know or haven't learned, but is the native tongue of the person they are speaking to.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by jmoum

Okay, this might sound really, really ignorant, and if it does, I'm sorry, because I honestly don't know much about speaking in tongues. But does this mean that some random person in church starts speaking in a completely foreign language, like Chinese or something? Do they already know the language when they start speaking it?

Depends what you mean. In the charismatic version people will start speaking absolute gibberish (often 'translated' by someone who apparently 'understands' what the gibberish means). This is not what I would call speaking in tongues but it does take place in church as well as in private.

What I would consider to be speaking in tongues is as described in the Bible with regards to Pentecost, where all the people present heard the Gospel in their own tongue (even though the Apostles clearly hadn't learnt them all). This, being a gift of God to aid evangelism, clearly is unlikely to occur in church, though it certainly isn't impossible. You're certainly unlikely to see anything like that in my church (though you will hear many tongues ).

We wouldn't call it speaking in tongues if you had previously learnt the language (except in slightly pathetic jokes as above). I have heard of people speaking in languages they never learnt as well as speaking one language and being understood as speaking another. It is a gift that is rare today because (as Blessed Augustine noted even in his era) the need for it has mostly passed, but it does still happen. The most famous case I know of in my church being of a Russian and French woman visiting a staretz (spiritual elder) together and the Russian hearing the same answers in Russian that the French woman (who spoke no Russian) heard in French. The staretz in question did not speak French.

If you come across any of the gifts of the Spirit in Orthodoxy it willmost likely be in the monastery rather than the parish church.

James

[JMoum04]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

Depends what you mean. In the charismatic version people will start speaking absolute gibberish (often 'translated' by someone who apparently 'understands' what the gibberish means). This is not what I would call speaking in tongues but it does take place in church as well as in private.

Huh, that's kind of odd. Do they try to speak in another language or is it something that just kind of happens?

What I would consider to be speaking in tongues is as described in the Bible with regards to Pentecost, where all the people present heard the Gospel in their own tongue (even though the Apostles clearly hadn't learnt them all). This, being a gift of God to aid evangelism, clearly is unlikely to occur in church, though it certainly isn't impossible. You're certainly unlikely to see anything like that in my church (though you will hear many tongues ).

Woah, that's cool. How often did this happen way back when? And was it well documented.

We wouldn't call it speaking in tongues if you had previously learnt the language (except in slightly pathetic jokes as above).

That would make sense I guess, because then it wouldn't be something miraculous.

If you come across any of the gifts of the Spirit in Orthodoxy it willmost likely be in the monastery rather than the parish church.

Why is that? Is it because monks have a certain training or are viewed as more receptive to the influences of God?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by jmoum

Why is that? Is it because monks have a certain training or are viewed as more receptive to the influences of God?

No. They just are able to spend more of their time in prayer and the like than we in the world can. To understand this better you would need to understand that we view salvation as a process (and one that continues after death) known as theosis where we strive to become perfect (not that anyone actually achieves perfection) by working in synergy with God's grace. As we also believe that God gives gifts to those who are worthy and/or in need of them. Monks (and nuns) just have more of a chance to work towards theosis than the rest of us, I guess - not that the gifts are exactly common amognst monastics either.

James

[JMoum04]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks a billion for the answers you two. ^_^