Leviticus (Jesus, moral, exodus, salvation, homosexuality)

[pdoel]

Ok, since you asked.

I don't understand the contradiction in laws. Why are there different laws for Jews than for others?

Does that mean that if I'm not a Jew, and only abide by the "non-Jew" laws, I will go to heaven? If you are a Jew, and you abide most of the laws, but break a few of the "Jew only" laws, will you go to Hell?

Or, does it mean that all non-Jews are going to Hell regardless of whether they live by God's laws or not? In which case, why even bother if I'm condemned to Hell, whether I follow God or not?

Why would God contradict himself?

I will state my opinion on this matter. It is my opinion, that God loves all his creatures. Whether you are black, white, blind, deaf, rich, poor, Jewish, Muslim or Chrisitan. I think God has a plan that none of us can possibly fathom. Who are any of us to say we know all the truths? Anyone who says they do, if you ask me, is completely arrogant, and will have a rude awakening come judgement day.

I don't see how God could possibly put a creature in the Middle East, have that child raised as a Muslim, NEVER know Judaism, or Christianity, but live the best Muslim life they are taught, follow their God's laws to the end, but then be condemned for enternity, because they never knew Jesus (If Christianity turns out to be the one true religion).

I just don't buy that. Why God allows all these different religions? I have no idea. Is it to make all our faith that much stronger? Possibly. Is it to make each other question, or try and get a better understanding of God? Could be. I do not know. All I know is what my faith tells me. I realize that your faith has given you different answers, and I completely respect that.

What I don't respect, is someone, who has NO idea if their "truth" is correct, or if mine is, telling me how I should live my life. My faith has just as much relevance to my life, as yours does to yours. I'm not asking you to live according to my beliefs, and you have no right to ask that of me.

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by pdoel

Ok, since you asked.

I don't understand the contradiction in laws. Why are there different laws for Jews than for others?

Does that mean that if I'm not a Jew, and only abide by the "non-Jew" laws, I will go to heaven? If you are a Jew, and you abide most of the laws, but break a few of the "Jew only" laws, will you go to Hell?

Or, does it mean that all non-Jews are going to Hell regardless of whether they live by God's laws or not? In which case, why even bother if I'm condemned to Hell, whether I follow God or not?

Originally Posted by AskNoah.org

QUESTION #12 : One question which bothers me just a little is this. G-d is the Al-mighty and Supreme and Perfect Being. He is all loving and all True. I don't understand why He would choose a small group of people who would be obligated to observe all His 613 Commandments, and that a much larger group of people, say for example, the Chinese nation, does not have to observe these but only the Seven Noahide Commandments.
>R. S.

ANSWER : There is a mistaken impression here when you say "only" the Seven Noahide Laws. In the Written Torah, the Jewish Commandments are stated by G-d in greater detail, and the Noahide Commandments are stated by G-d in greater generality. (As an analogy, consider the beauty of a field of fresh snow, and the separate beauty of each individual snowflake.) When examined in terms of their specific requirements, the Noahide Commandments encompass many details, as do the Jewish Commandments. A very scholarly treatment of this contrast is covered in the book "The Seven Laws of Noah," by Aaron Lichtenstein.

In a general way, Gentiles are "only" responsible to G-d for following the Seven Commandments of Noah. In a particular way, each of the Seven Noahide Commandments encompasses numerous details, as to what specific actions are forbidden by each general prohibition, how the justice system should function, etc. To learn many practical details of the Noahide Laws, see the book "The Path of the Righteous Gentile," by Y. Rogalsky and C. Chlorfene. Also, there are a few additional righteous practices which the Gentile nations of antiquity voluntarily accepted to take upon themselves - see on our web page RIGHTEOUS TRADITION.

Originally Posted by pdoel

I will state my opinion on this matter. It is my opinion, that God loves all his creatures. Whether you are black, white, blind, deaf, rich, poor, Jewish, Muslim or Chrisitan. I think God has a plan that none of us can possibly fathom. Who are any of us to say we know all the truths? Anyone who says they do, if you ask me, is completely arrogant, and will have a rude awakening come judgement day.

I don't see how God could possibly put a creature in the Middle East, have that child raised as a Muslim, NEVER know Judaism, or Christianity, but live the best Muslim life they are taught, follow their God's laws to the end, but then be condemned for enternity, because they never knew Jesus (If Christianity turns out to be the one true religion).

I just don't buy that. Why God allows all these different religions? I have no idea. Is it to make all our faith that much stronger? Possibly. Is it to make each other question, or try and get a better understanding of God? Could be. I do not know. All I know is what my faith tells me. I realize that your faith has given you different answers, and I completely respect that.

What I don't respect, is someone, who has NO idea if their "truth" is correct, or if mine is, telling me how I should live my life. My faith has just as much relevance to my life, as yours does to yours. I'm not asking you to live according to my beliefs, and you have no right to ask that of me.

Well, thanks for your opinion, but as I said, as of right now, from your current postings, it doesn't avaluate to much, although you're doing better. Here is something I want you to do. I found almost all your questions answered by the Noahide people themselves at www.AskNoah.org go there, read about it, then come back with questions.

[pdoel]

Originally Posted by Binyamin

Well, thanks for your opinion, but as I said, as of right now, from your current postings, it doesn't avaluate to much, although you're doing better. Here is something I want you to do. I found almost all your questions answered by the Noahide people themselves at www.AskNoah.org go there, read about it, then come back with questions.

Well, no offense, but I have the same feelings towards you and your post. I respect the fact that you follow the Judaism religion, however, I do not share your beliefs. Just because we have different beliefs, does not mean that we do not follow our own beliefs as we should.

Trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't follow your beliefs, in my opinion, doesn't help your case much.

I'd prefer to discuss ideas, rather than use cheap shots to try and gain credibility.

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by pdoel

Trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't follow your beliefs, in my opinion, doesn't help your case much.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about because you don't follow them, I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about because you don't know them.

There are athiests on the forum (Duet 10:19) who know Torah and have studied it before posting their opinion. However, from you, I've yet to see any indictatoin you've studied or read the bible.

Originally Posted by pdoel

I'd prefer to discuss ideas, rather than use cheap shots to try and gain credibility.

Okay, and what ideas would you like to discuss? What did you think of the site? questions? comments?

[pdoel]

Originally Posted by Binyamin

There are athiests on the forum (Duet 10:19) who know Torah and have studied it before posting their opinion. However, from you, I've yet to see any indictatoin you've studied or read the bible.

How much of the New Testament have you read? For my point of view, your points only focus on YOUR Bible. You need to keep in mind, that for most Christians, we seem to focus more on the New Testament.

I'll admit, I don't study the old testament as much as I do the new. Mainly because for us, things have changed.

I do realize that many sins are discussed in the old. That many laws are discussed. However, when we received Jesus Christ, all of that changed. As I state many, many times, John 3:16 says it all. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

So, for my religion, many of your points do not apply to me, or how I live my life. Most of your laws, you still follow because you have not yet been saved. While I do my best to follow the laws, I also realize that I have a new covenant with God. It doesn't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. But, I do feel that God loves me, and that I'm exactly the person who wanted me to be. Even though I am gay.

I could be dead wrong in my beliefs, and I realize that. But my faith is strong, and my faith says God would not create me gay, and give me the ability to love and care for another, but then not want me to do so. Your laws say otherwise, and I completely respect that. What I don't respect, is when people try and keep me from living my life, based on THEIR views, without realizing mine are different.

I also don't respect people who love to tell others what to do, but don't follow those practices themselves.

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by pdoel

How much of the New Testament have you read? For my point of view, your points only focus on YOUR Bible. You need to keep in mind, that for most Christians, we seem to focus more on the New Testament.

I read it once when I lost a poker hand to a Christian, I had 3 king, he had a straight. I didn't think I could lose, and he raised above what I had, so I told him (thinking I'd never have to do it) that I would read the NT if I lost.

Originally Posted by pdoel

I'll admit, I don't study the old testament as much as I do the new. Mainly because for us, things have changed.

Okay.

Originally Posted by pdoel

I do realize that many sins are discussed in the old. That many laws are discussed. However, when we received Jesus Christ, all of that changed. As I state many, many times, John 3:16 says it all. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Yes, well you first have to prove your belief, unless you don't think you can. Maybe start with this thread here:
Interpreting Prophesies in Scripture,Has a prophesy been fulfilled or yet to be ...
It's awfully (sp?) quiet in there about those messianic prophecies.

Originally Posted by pdoel

So, for my religion, many of your points do not apply to me, or how I live my life. Most of your laws, you still follow because you have not yet been saved. While I do my best to follow the laws, I also realize that I have a new covenant with God. It doesn't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. But, I do feel that God loves me, and that I'm exactly the person who wanted me to be. Even though I am gay.

Now, this, you, raise interesting questions...

Why must G-d conform to your beliefs? Wouldn't it be true, as he created you, that you're on his terms of the contract?

Originally Posted by pdoel

I could be dead wrong in my beliefs, and I realize that. But my faith is strong, and my faith says God would not create me gay, and give me the ability to love and care for another, but then not want me to do so. Your laws say otherwise, and I completely respect that. What I don't respect, is when people try and keep me from living my life, based on THEIR views, without realizing mine are different.

Well, then do what no other has done here, prove your point with scripture backing you up. Explain how homosexuality, according to the bible is wrong. Saying people are hypocrits doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong.

Originally Posted by pdoel

I also don't respect people who love to tell others what to do, but don't follow those practices themselves.

I agree... To an extent. The problem is when you start taking laws that apply to a direct group of people and apply them to the masses.

[pdoel]

Originally Posted by Binyamin

I read it once when I lost a poker hand to a Christian, I had 3 king, he had a straight. I didn't think I could lose, and he raised above what I had, so I told him (thinking I'd never have to do it) that I would read the NT if I lost.

In my house, two queens beat a straight any day. (Sorry, line from Will & Grace that fits well here. Ha ha.)

Yes, well you first have to prove your belief, unless you don't think you can. Maybe start with this thread here:
Interpreting Prophesies in Scripture,Has a prophesy been fulfilled or yet to be ...
It's awfully (sp?) quiet in there about those messianic prophecies.

Actually, I feel no need to prove my belief. To you, or anyone. I answer to God, and God alone. I do not need to prove anything to you. In fact, Satan once tried to test Jesus, and Jesus refused to play along.

Why must G-d conform to your beliefs? Wouldn't it be true, as he created you, that you're on his terms of the contract?

I never said God must conform to my beliefs. My beliefs have conformed to what my faith has taught me. It's not Scripture, or my minister, or anyone else who has changed my beliefs. But it has been my experience through prayer, my faith, and my relationship with God, that has formed my beliefs. God has not conformed to me. I have conformed to Him.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Too many years ago I use to help train non-violent civil rights demonstrators.

What, specifically, do you do if/when you are ... ?
What, specifically, do you do if/when the person next to you is ... ?

I saw many brave uncertainty, harrassment, attack, and arrest aided solely by their commitment and a sense of what, specifically, to do.

Ritual is calming, seductive, powerful. In its commentary on Leviticus, Etz Hayim notes:

Ritual is a way of giving voice to our ultimate values. Each of us needs a sense of holiness to navigate the relentless secularity of our lives. For the Israelites of Biblical times, it must have been gratifying to know what to so when they wanted to approach God at crucial moments of their lives or in gratitude.

From my perspective as a naturalist, I see a people taking seriously the command "ye shall be holy" and doing their very best to evolve the ethics and the rituals that might facilitate this effort. They are to be commended.

At the same time, their attitudes about many things were clearly insular and backward. Binyamin aside, the reason for not killing homosexuals is not the absence of the Temple or the Sanhedrin but, rather, an understanding of homosexuality informed by science and inspired by a respect for diversity.

Again: the Judeo-Christian homosexual can look at the Bible - be it Torah, Tanakh, or OT/NT - and come to one of two conclusions: that s/he is seriously flawed or that the text is seriously flawed. I look at the same document, reject its homophobia, and marvel at its insights.

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

Binyamin aside, the reason for not killing homosexuals is not the absence of the Temple or the Sanhedrin but, rather, an understanding of homosexuality informed by science and inspired by a respect for diversity.

That's highly debatable. Although I did read somewhere that some modern orthodox rabbi's maintain that if homosexuality is indeed genetic, that they wouldn't be held responsible when Moshiach returns and sets up the courts. They still maintain that it is wrong to do the acts, but the orientation, well... there is a debate on that.

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

Again: the Judeo-Christian homosexual can look at the Bible - be it Torah, Tanakh, or OT/NT - and come to one of two conclusions: that s/he is seriously flawed or that the text is seriously flawed. I look at the same document, reject its homophobia, and marvel at its insights.