Evil spirits (Jesus, Tanakh, gospel, translation, theist)

[gnostic]

Although I have brought up the subject of dualism of good vs evil up before, I am still intrigue and perplexed by the bible that "God is good and Satan is evil" business.

If you take out Satan being a fallen angel or demon, then he would be considered the god of evil. But since monotheistic religions would only consider there to be only one god, then it throw the whole equation of good/evil out the window.

According to the Old Testament, or what the Jews would called Tanakh, their Hebrew Scriptures, God don't seem to be good and evil, he seemed to be both. The Book of Job, Satan seemed to be working for God. Satan doesn't seemed to be evil here. He does bring the opposite argument to God, but they both seemed to be working together.

With Zorostrian influence in later texts, we see the good vs evil become more pronounced, such as in the 2 books of Enoch, and even later with the gospels. It is only after 550 BC that we see God to be good and Satan (and company) as evil. And it is only then we see that the evil spirits or fallen angels were working for Satan instead of God. In the gospels, it is clear that Satan was only working for himself, but it is not so clear cut in the Old Testament.

In Job, Satan, seemed to be working for God, and sent to torment Job. But this is not the only example. We see other examples, where it is God is sending evil spirits.

Originally Posted by 1 Samuel 18:10

The next day an evil spirit of God gripped Saul and he began to rave in the house....

This "evil" spirit possessed Saul didn't come from Satan. The evil spirit was sent again, by God, in 1 Samuel 19:9.

So you have to wonder whether all evil spirits come from God or not.

[dawny0826]

The NKJV reads a bit differently...

"And it happened on the next day that the distressing spirit from God came upon Saul..."

God reserves the right to chastise.

[gnostic]

That translation I put in, came from the new JPS edition (Jewish Publication Society).

Originally Posted by Good News Bible, 1 Samuel 18:10

The next day an evil spirit from God suddenly took control of Saul, and he raved in his house like a madman.

Originally Posted by King James Version, 1 Samuel 18:10

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

Originally Posted by King James Version, 1 Samuel 19:9

And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

Originally Posted by Good News Bible, 1 Samuel 19:9

One day an evil spirit from the Lord took control of Saul.He was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was there, playing his harp.

Originally Posted by JPS, 1 Samuel 19:9

Then an evil spirit of the Lord came upon Saul while he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing.

[mormonman]

In the Joseph Smith Translation replace "from God" w/ "which was not of God". I think it makes a lot more sense now.

[jeffrey]

The only evil spirits there are is in a cheap, cheap bottle of booze.

[gnostic]

I'll drink to that! *hic* *hic*

I don't think Smith's biblical version is in common circulation, except among fellow-Mormons; so I have not being able to get a copy of it.

In the gospels, Jesus had exorcised demons out of several people, who had been possessed. Regardless, if the evil spirits or distressing spirits, Saul had been possessed whenever David was around, and it causes him to have unreasoning jealousy and envy, and rage, and even madness. The spirit was a tool from God, not from Satan.

God may sent helpers to various people, but he seemed to be the one directing evil spirits too, such as the case with Saul and Job. In the book of Daniel (chapter 4), he brought madness upon the Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar, for 7 years. It came from the "spirit of the holy gods" (JPS, 4:5).

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by mormonman

In the Joseph Smith Translation replace "from God" w/ "which was not of God". I think it makes a lot more sense now.

That makes perfect sense from a Christian point of view. The problem is that the scripture is not a Christian writing -- it's Hebrew. Since the Hebrews were fiercely monotheistic, they would have seen all spirits, both good ones and evil ones, to have come from God. In that sense, the passage makes perfect sense as is.

[Bangbang]

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)



7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by BangBang

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(Frubal to you)

Yes, that's what I am getting at.

Here is JPS version:

Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness
I make weal and create woe -
I the Lord do all these things.

Both KJV and JPS version make it clear that he is responsible for darkness and evil as well as with light and good.

God is not just good, he is evil too. He is both good and evil. And the evil spirits also come from him as well as good spirits. Like the force of nature, such as the sun, wind and sea, it has nothing to do with good and evil, but like these natural phenomena, God is both creator and destroyer.

If there is no other gods than HIM, then the only way you can reconcile "evil" in monotheism, is that he is also the personification of evil. Satan is nothing more than God's servant, doing his will.

[Esther]

Nothing evil comes from God...so why is evil in the world if God created it? Because the angels were given free will like us and some of them freely chose not to love and build up, but to hate and tear down what God loved. If evil comes to us it's because of 1) our original sin (no, a baby isn't evil, but when he grows up he'll be attracted to it for sure!) 2) our giving in to whatever fleshly desire seems more important than pure love of God and neighbor and/or 3) the love of the world rather than heaven. God will allow evil to occur but only because he can cause a greater good to come of it. Here's just one example... St. Elizabeth was married to a worldly man who tried to get her to give up her quaint religion and be more cosmopolitan...she kept a diary of her prayers for the conversion of her husband, who did convert after watching her protracted and painful death and discovering what she'd written. The point is that Elizabeth didn't get to "see" the results of her prayers, yet her prayers were answered....God can write straight with the crooked lines we give him to work with.