Long Hair.... (Jesus, tradition, grace, blood, churches)

[Buttons*]

I Corinthians 11:1-17

1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.
4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head.
5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.
6 For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.
7 A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9 nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;
10 for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority 6 on her head, because of the angels.
11 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.
12 For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?
14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,
15 whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?
16 But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.
17 In giving this instruction, I do not praise the fact that your meetings are doing more harm than good.

Okay in the lovely world of CHUMS (Christian Humanities) we are continuing in our journey through I Corinthians. We discussed today how Paul (Biblical, not the Badger Lord one...) talks of how people should behave. Now, I will admit that for the purposes of my point, i'll be taking things out of context, but there's the whole thing, so you can see how it's really being used and make your own judgement about my arguements.

Okay, in verse 6, Paul says that if a Woman does not cover her head in Church, she should have her hair cut off because it is shameful. Does this mean that Christian women should cover their heads when in church? Paul's solution for this is to cut their hair off, or shave their head, since that (i'm supposing) is the mark of shame in women. Paul seems to place complete and utter authority on men. I don't remember Yeshua placing men above women... interesting...

(I will say that in verse 11 Paul does sort of redeem himself saying that man and women are not independent of one another because they were both created by God anyway. But for the purpose of this argument, i'm disreguarding that statement.)

In verse 14, which is a BIG thing for me: Paul says that men having long hair is shameful! Does that mean that Yeshua would have had short hair? For the style of the time that Paul wrote this letter, the Romans had their hair cut, and so did most people. ("The Jesus Mysteries") Because Yeshua was a jew, and not orthodox, would he have been shaven and have his hair cut short? Scary thought hu? (My opinion on how Yeshua looked changed quickly after reading that...)

opinions? ideas? comments? do share!

[blood-lord14]

paul was a perverted old man...man and woman came equally not from eachother,your scriptures lack proof or reason no offense but you need a better tyrant of faith other than god.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by blood-lord14

paul was a perverted old man...man and woman came equally not from eachother,your scriptures lack proof or reason no offense but you need a better tyrant of faith other than god.

Thanks for your input.... unfortunatley, i must say that i dont think you have a clue what i'm asking. I'm not a Christian and don't believe in the scriptures that i posted, I wanted rational thought out opinions and ideas.

If I wanted a "tyrant of faith," I wouldn't be worshiping a timecube... but that's just me... please grow up some sweetie, then try commenting again. I'll be looking forward to your more mature posting... *smiles*

[blood-lord14]

Originally Posted by Buttons*

I Corinthians 11:1-17

1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.
4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head.
5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.
6 For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.
7 A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9 nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;
10 for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority 6 on her head, because of the angels.
11 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.
12 For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?
14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,
15 whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?
16 But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.
17 In giving this instruction, I do not praise the fact that your meetings are doing more harm than good.

Okay in the lovely world of CHUMS (Christian Humanities) we are continuing in our journey through I Corinthians. We discussed today how Paul (Biblical, not the Badger Lord one...) talks of how people should behave. Now, I will admit that for the purposes of my point, i'll be taking things out of context, but there's the whole thing, so you can see how it's really being used and make your own judgement about my arguements.

Okay, in verse 6, Paul says that if a Woman does not cover her head in Church, she should have her hair cut off because it is shameful. Does this mean that Christian women should cover their heads when in church? Paul's solution for this is to cut their hair off, or shave their head, since that (i'm supposing) is the mark of shame in women. Paul seems to place complete and utter authority on men. I don't remember Yeshua placing men above women... interesting...

(I will say that in verse 11 Paul does sort of redeem himself saying that man and women are not independent of one another because they were both created by God anyway. But for the purpose of this argument, i'm disreguarding that statement.)

In verse 14, which is a BIG thing for me: Paul says that men having long hair is shameful! Does that mean that Yeshua would have had short hair? For the style of the time that Paul wrote this letter, the Romans had their hair cut, and so did most people. ("The Jesus Mysteries") Because Yeshua was a jew, and not orthodox, would he have been shaven and have his hair cut short? Scary thought hu? (My opinion on how Yeshua looked changed quickly after reading that...)

opinions? ideas? comments? do share!

1.imitators of christ are anti-christ's or just insane christians (or so they call themselves).
2.i don't recall remembering christ during my life (pointless statement but one that should be looked at repeatedly).
3.God is irrational because he only represents adult queers (not my personal opnion but it shal do for this concept).
4.being shameful is a HUMAN emotion there is nothing wrong with that,it is fair to treat your hair with respect though.
5.again shame is a HUMAN emotion already there no big suprise,the feminine aspect is best with long hair anyways (even if my hair is long so what).
6.rediculos biblical demand from only a one person point of view one of the few i HATE personally (even if im not a woman who cares).
7.another rediculos biblical statment i can't stand..because there is nothing righteous about it note that paul is very irrational and self-centered.
8.no gender came from another but we did come equally with diffrent values or else adam and eve would really be monsterous creatures instead of humans.
9.i have no reason 2 repeat myself..
10.one 6 no harm done..2 more to go for whatever you didn't do.
11.so the LORD is pointless is all your stating because IT is not human but a manifestation OF man so GOD is really a BEAST.
12.if all things are from god all things as well are beasts.
13.doesn't matter either way "paul" judgment is for your God beast not for HUMANity.
14.so i disgrace myself im not going to whine about it geez such sensetive believers you are.
15.again the judgment is not a HUMAN decision if GOD the beast is your LORD IT must clearly make the judgment.
16.oh dear lord...YOUR A BEAST!!!
17.no harm here pauly im just thinking rationally,

HAIR IS A GIFT OF GOD
GOD IS A HAIRY BEAST
LONG HAIR IS okay as long as your not psychotic over your religous lies.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by blood-lord14

1.imitators of christ are anti-christ's or just insane christians (or so they call themselves).
2.i don't recall remembering christ during my life (pointless statement but one that should be looked at repeatedly).
3.God is irrational because he only represents adult queers (not my personal opnion but it shal do for this concept).
4.being shameful is a HUMAN emotion there is nothing wrong with that,it is fair to treat your hair with respect though.
5.again shame is a HUMAN emotion already there no big suprise,the feminine aspect is best with long hair anyways (even if my hair is long so what).
6.rediculos biblical demand from only a one person point of view one of the few i HATE personally (even if im not a woman who cares).
7.another rediculos biblical statment i can't stand..because there is nothing righteous about it note that paul is very irrational and self-centered.
8.no gender came from another but we did come equally with diffrent values or else adam and eve would really be monsterous creatures instead of humans.
9.i have no reason 2 repeat myself..
10.one 6 no harm done..2 more to go for whatever you didn't do.
11.so the LORD is pointless is all your stating because IT is not human but a manifestation OF man so GOD is really a BEAST.
12.if all things are from god all things as well are beasts.
13.doesn't matter either way "paul" judgment is for your God beast not for HUMANity.
14.so i disgrace myself im not going to whine about it geez such sensetive believers you are.
15.again the judgment is not a HUMAN decision if GOD the beast is your LORD IT must clearly make the judgment.
16.oh dear lord...YOUR A BEAST!!!
17.no harm here pauly im just thinking rationally,

HAIR IS A GIFT OF GOD
GOD IS A HAIRY BEAST
LONG HAIR IS okay as long as your not psychotic over your religous lies.

At least this time you sort of gave evidence for your point of view, no matter how childish it remains. Why would you choose to be upset at a person who has been dead nearly 2,000 years for an opinion?

My point was to ask if we follow Paul's laws of what Christ wants, shouldn't women keep their hair covered?

[James the Persian]

Buttons,

If I remember correctly (and I can do some digging if you're interested but it might take some time as I haven't looked at this for ages) the 'long hair' actually refers to the sort of fancy hair dos that were worn as status symbols, particularly by women, in the Roman Empire. This was seen as sort of bragging behaviour in the Church and hence St. Paul advised that the hair should be covered (incidentally, I think 'shaved' actually refers to having the hair in a simple style rather than shaming the woman). The same is true with regards to the men. Paul was arguing against showy outward displays for either sex. If anything he seems more lenient towards the women, who he says can keep but cover their fancy styles in Church. Men, he says, simply can't have them. Now, I can't provide any sources for this at present as the information comes from a conversation with a Greek Orthodox seminarian, but I'd be happy to look for some.

The Church, of course, has traditionally expected women to cover their hair, but this is getting less common nowadays. Except in certain cultures (notably Russian) you're unlikely to see anyone but old ladies with covered heads. In our (Romanian) Church, the only young women you'll see with covered heads are those who are in mourning but given that old ladies often keep their head covered at all times in Romania you can't even conclude much from how they dress for Church. For example, my wife has never, not in her entire life, seen her grandmother's hair in the light. The only time she removes her headscarf is to brush her hair, in the dark, immediately before bed.

James

[blood-lord14]

thus the answer remains no.

[Scuba Pete]

There are many cultural laws tied up into spiritual ones throughout the Bible.

The real onus is in the first verse: imitate Paul AS he imitates Christ. Paul is human and suffers (as we do) from a host of biases and an incomplete understanding of Jesus' commandment.

As for how Jesus looked, it is impossible to derive and that's how it should be. The physical aspects of Jesus are NOT important. His spiritual aspects are.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

There are many cultural laws tied up into spiritual ones throughout the Bible.

This is true

Originally Posted by ND}The real onus is in the first verse: imitate Paul [b

AS[/b] he imitates Christ. Paul is human and suffers (as we do) from a host of biases and an incomplete understanding of Jesus' commandment.

I agree... so shouldn't we follow Yeshua's law instead of Paul's?

[quote=ND} As for how Jesus looked, it is impossible to derive and that's how it should be. The physical aspects of Jesus are NOT important. His spiritual aspects are.[/QUOTE]
This is very true! Frubals!

[Buttons*]

James, I would love for you to get me more information on the subject! Thanks! *smiles*