John 3:16 (salvation, funeral, blood, hell, mission)

Buttons* · #1 01-08-2006, 11:12 PM

In another thread "Children of Adulters" Michel brought up a topic about children dying before baptism. Interestingly enough (for me at least) on Friday in my Christian Humanities class we talked about that exact subject! So I thought i'd bring it up on here! yay! (this should probably go into discussion instead of debate, but the mods can decide that *shrugs*)

SO yes, if Christians believe that you have to be baptised in order to go to heaven, and a child dies before they can be baptised (be it miscarriges, abortions, complications in birth, undeveloped vital organs, premature birth... which result in death...) does it go to heaven? Catholics, (correct me if im wrong guys) would say that it goes to Limbo. What do yall think about that? WIll a child, if not baptised before death, go to hell? Why do you think what you think about it?

Another tough question is: When is a child accountable for understanding God and accepting Him? I was baptised as a baby, and the school says that it doesnt count because I, myself, never asked God into my heart. What do you think? When can a child fully understand the concept of God, and choose to accept Him? Is there a cut off age when children are accountable in the eyes of God for salvation?

Also, for those who will never understand the concept of God, such as the mentally challanged, does God grant mercy upon them if they cannot grasp the concept themselves?

Bishka · #2 01-08-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis_777

In another thread "Children of Adulters" Michel brought up a topic about children dying before baptism. Interestingly enough (for me at least) on Friday in my Christian Humanities class we talked about that exact subject! So I thought i'd bring it up on here! yay! (this should probably go into discussion instead of debate, but the mods can decide that *shrugs*)

SO yes, if Christians believe that you have to be baptised in order to go to heaven, and a child dies before they can be baptised (be it miscarriges, abortions, complications in birth, undeveloped vital organs, premature birth... which result in death...) does it go to heaven? Catholics, (correct me if im wrong guys) would say that it goes to Limbo. What do yall think about that? WIll a child, if not baptised before death, go to hell? Why do you think what you think about it?

Another tough question is: When is a child accountable for understanding God and accepting Him? I was baptised as a baby, and the school says that it doesnt count because I, myself, never asked God into my heart. What do you think? When can a child fully understand the concept of God, and choose to accept Him? Is there a cut off age when children are accountable in the eyes of God for salvation?

Also, for those who will never understand the concept of God, such as the mentally challanged, does God grant mercy upon them if they cannot grasp the concept themselves?

Well, I don't know if you know about the LDS thoughts on this, but any child under the age of 8 is automatically saved, no matter what.

After that if someone, anyone, even a child 8 and over has died, we do proxy baptisms so the child has a chance, so in the LDS faith, everyone has a chance, it's just up to them when they are dead if they accept it or not.

jonny · #3 01-08-2006, 11:44 PM

Too bad more Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon... It would clear everything up.

Moroni 8:11-12

"And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!"

It goes on to say that child baptism is a mockery before God and his mercy and calling baptism without repentance putting faith in "dead works." The words are harsh, but it is obviously something that Moroni felt passionate about.

James the Persian · #4 01-09-2006, 02:47 AM

We certainly don't believe unbaptised infants are damned - they are sinless after all. We also don't believe that unbaptised adults are necessarily damned and there are quite a few saints who never had the opportunity to be baptised. Historically speaking, the Church always accepted baptism in fact, baptism by blood (being martyred before baptism) and baptism by desire (dying before having the opportunity to be baptised whilst desiring it) as valid. An Orthodox catechumen, for instance, who dies before their baptism is still afforded an Orthodox funeral even today, though normally this is forbidden to people not baptised (or chrismated) in the Church.

James

P.S.

Limbo is not Roman Catholic doctrine and it looks as though the idea will soon be dropped altogether. We Orthodox never had such an idea in the first place so, from my point of view, this is a good development.

michel · #5 01-09-2006, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

We certainly don't believe unbaptised infants are damned - they are sinless after all. We also don't believe that unbaptised adults are necessarily damned and there are quite a few saints who never had the opportunity to be baptised. Historically speaking, the Church always accepted baptism in fact, baptism by blood (being martyred before baptism) and baptism by desire (dying before having the opportunity to be baptised whilst desiring it) as valid. An Orthodox catechumen, for instance, who dies before their baptism is still afforded an Orthodox funeral even today, though normally this is forbidden to people not baptised (or chrismated) in the Church.
P.S.

Limbo is not Roman Catholic doctrine and it looks as though the idea will soon be dropped altogether. We Orthodox never had such an idea in the first place so, from my point of view, this is a good development.

James.

Hehe, you beat me to it James; Hi Gnosis !

I was going to say that when I first started delving into Christianity, I had this dreadful image of babies who had unfortunately died before Baptism going to Hell, which, of course, seeing as the Christian God is one of love, would make no sense whatsoever. There are Christians who believe that Baptism is not even necessary......

There is a very useful article here on Baptism :-Baptism: A Flood of Confusion By: Jeff Miller , Th.M. I think the title alone gives credence to James' post (although that sounds as if James needs credence, which of vourse is rubbish, as he most likely knows more than I will ever learn!

).........
A short abstract (the conclusion of the paper - which is well worth the read)

Few Christian practices are as misunderstood as baptism. And few doctrines are as controversial. Some churches practice infant baptism; others practice believer's baptism. Some teach that baptism is necessary for salvation; others, in an effort to not confuse baptism with salvation, downplay the importance of baptism altogether. Should infants be baptized? Is baptism necessary for salvation? Why do some churches immerse people in water while others pour or sprinkle the water over the head? These and other questions will be answered during this instructional message. We will look at the Bible's teachings on water baptism and how it was practiced by the early church. Furthermore, we will encourage--as the Bible encourages--believers who have not undergone baptism to follow in obedience to our Lord's model.

may · #6 01-09-2006, 05:47 AM

The God that i worship would never sent anyone to a so called firey hellfire to be tormented ,the God that i worship is a God of Love, why anyone would even want to believe that God would do that ......beats me...... false religious teachers have a lot to answer to God for ,teaching the flocks lies about God ,and what gets me is people get to believing the lies

michel · #7 01-09-2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by may

The God that i worship would never sent anyone to a so called firey hellfire to be tormented ,the God that i worship is a God of Love, why anyone would even want to believe that God would do that ......beats me...... false religious teachers have a lot to answer to God for ,teaching the flocks lies about God ,and what gets me is people get to believing the lies

Well said!

jeffrey · #8 01-09-2006, 06:09 AM

I believe that Baptism is more of a ritual then anything else. As James pointed out, you can be 'Saved by proxy', meaning as long as you believe. I believe that a child that does not understand sin will be saved. What age? that depends. A mentally Retarded child might not ever hit that age of reason, such as my brother. He's in his 50's, and still will be saved, for he, in mind, is only 6.

curiouslyminty · #9 01-09-2006, 09:29 AM

I would say baptism is necessary if you refuse to do it. But God is just enough that if he requires your life before you have the oppertunity, I doubt youll be judged.

And for children, I don't believe they sin until maturity. I think sin is in the will of the person doing it. You can't accidently sin. You have to deliberately perform an act of disobedience (which everyone does)