Hoping for some thoughts from mormons (Jesus Christ, priest, Moses, gospel)

[curiouslyminty]

I joined the religious forums tonight after a few google searches looking for the typical LDS members reasoning behind their faith. And decided it would probably be best to just ask! haha

I have been wanting to hear some thoughts after my own personal conversion to Christianity four years ago. Let me just explain my background of knowledge. I've went to four different mormon churches- one in liberty, MO, two in new orleans, and one in salt lake city. All extremely large (imo) and vibrant places. I can tell there is a strong genuine faith there and as such I found myself wanting to know more.

I bought a copy of the book of mormon and read the entire thing in one night actually. (three weeks ago) It sort of caught me offguard. To be honest I could barely believe what i was reading. So i bought a few commentaries and discovered the sort of shocking views on skin color, many Gods, and maybe more interestingly the claim that we all might become Gods.
Did i interpret some verses incorrectly? probably... Thats why im here. Three questions/points and ill be done.

A) Why does the Book of Mormon appear to claim to be superior to the Bible? It appears that way from the beginning but i have the passages written down somewhere. (I Nephi 13:26-40; 3:166-193)-ish Do you believe the book of mormon to trump the original bible? Even in Contradictions?

B) Second are the things which mormons disbelieve that are taught in the Bible. Unblief in the virgin birth, neccessity of baptism, ect I can give verses for all these if needed. Same question as above basically.

C) Third is the things that have had to be changed to fit with modern culture. (racism, polygamy, ect) Does it not seem rather odd to have a religion needing to be constantly modified by man? How do you personally find faith here?

These all stem from the fact that my family was catholic as I was growing up. As soon as I hit puberty I remember having doubts and eventually pure skeptisism at the church. What I eventually found was I didnt have a problem with God.. I had trouble with the people attempting to add and subtract to it. When I see the more modern mormans i get the same feeling, but knowing that you all probably didnt just get born into a mormon family. Why did you become a believer?

Or maybe more of an mean question, but one that im thinking.. why do you believe one man's word? speaking of joseph smith. If the answer is a personal experience thats fine, I would still like to hear a few words. Thanks! and hopefully I'm not sounding rude.

[curiouslyminty]

And I understand that it is not just ONE man. But his wife and close friends. I still see it as jump of faith of monstrous proportions. A clarifyer(sp)- upon reading the book of mormon for the first time, did you immediately believe? or were you pursuaded by God or Man over time?

If it helps, I won't respond but merely read I don't want to seem like im attacking.. however much it might look like it. I want to know why I do or don't believe!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by curiouslyminty

I joined the religious forums tonight after a few google searches looking for the typical LDS members reasoning behind their faith. And decided it would probably be best to just ask! haha

Well, I've got to admit... that's a novel approach! But much appreciated, I might add.

I bought a copy of the book of mormon and read the entire thing in one night actually. (three weeks ago) It sort of caught me offguard. To be honest I could barely believe what i was reading. So i bought a few commentaries and discovered the sort of shocking views on skin color, many Gods, and maybe more interestingly the claim that we all might become Gods.
Did i interpret some verses incorrectly? probably... Thats why im here. Three questions/points and ill be done.

You've got to be kidding! That's over five hundred pages of heavy reading. I've never known anyone who was able to do that before. What part did you like best?

I've got a couple of questions before we get started. (1) Who published the commentaries? (2) Where in the Book of Mormon did you find the "shocking views on skin color, many Gods, and... the claim that we all might become Gods"? If you can tell me the verses you were questioning, perhaps I can tell you whether or not your interpretation was correct or not.

A) Why does the Book of Mormon appear to claim to be superior to the Bible? It appears that way from the beginning but i have the passages written down somewhere. (

I Nephi 13:26-40; 3:166-193)-ish Do you believe the book of mormon to trump the original bible? Even in Contradictions?

We believe them to complement each other. As you may have noticed, the subtitle of the Book of Mormon is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." It's entire purpose is to stand as a witness to the Bible. It certainly doesn't trump the Bible, because it doesn't need to. I think the only thing about the Book of Mormon that might be said to be superior to the Bible is that the "original document" was translated only once prior to its publication. The Biblical writings were passed down from generation to generation and obviously hand-copied. It was also translated many times. If we were to compare the original BoM (i.e. the plates) to the original Bible (various documents), neither one would be superior to the other.

B)

Second are the things which mormons disbelieve that are taught in the Bible. Unblief in the virgin birth, neccessity of baptism, ect I can give verses for all these if needed. Same question as above basically.

Yes, please do. We believe in the virgin birth and in the necessity of baptism, so I really don't know what you mean. Please cite chapter and verse, as it will help me answer your questions.

C) Third is the things that have had to be changed to fit with modern culture. (racism, polygamy, ect) Does it not seem rather odd to have a religion needing to be constantly modified by man? How do you personally find faith here?

It doesn't strike me as odd at all. The gospel has been the same since the beginning of time. But depending upon the needs of the people and their readiness to live new laws, God may change policies and procedures from time to time. I am personally drawn to Mormonism because it seems to answer all of my questions about God and my relationship to Him. There are no gaping holes in our theology and no puzzle pieces that just don't seem to fit. Mormonism makes total sense to me. That's why I am so content as a Latter-day Saint. Also, I am 100% convinced that the Apostasy Paul prophesied of did, in fact, take place. That's why I can't be comfortable in any other Christian denomination. I believe that a Restoration was absolutely necessary. I'm not talking about a Reformation; I'm talking about a Restoration of the truth from the ground up.

These all stem from the fact that my family was catholic as I was growing up. As soon as I hit puberty I remember having doubts and eventually pure skeptisism at the church. What I eventually found was I didnt have a problem with God.. I had trouble with the people attempting to add and subtract to it. When I see the more modern mormans i get the same feeling, but knowing that you all probably didnt just get born into a mormon family. Why did you become a believer?

I was personally born into a Mormon family. Acqalung is a convert, though, so she may be able to give you a different perspective.

As far as "adding or subtracting" from God's word, you've got to understand that we believe that a great many of the doctrines Christ taught we lost within the first couple of centuries after His death. It would stand to reason that they would have been re-introduced if His Church was, in fact, restored. I guess that's what it all gets down to. The things we believe happened between 1820 and 1830 or so either happened or they didn't. There's no other relevant perspective. And it gets down to whether or not you can trust what the Holy Ghost tells you.

Or maybe more of an mean question, but one that im thinking.. why do you believe one man's word? speaking of joseph smith. If the answer is a personal experience thats fine, I would still like to hear a few words. Thanks! and hopefully I'm not sounding rude.

I believe his word because I believe that He was a prophet of God. It is inconceivable to me that God would leave us with nothing more than a book to rely on. Not that I'm trying to devalue the book, but you've got to admit, it's caused a bit of confusion over the ages. There are over 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, and no two of them teach exactly the same doctrines. In my opinion, God would want us to know the truth. And the only way this could happen was for Him to communicate through a prophet. If He did so in ancient times, and if Christ established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles, it seems quite logical to me that He intended to continue to direct His Church through them.

Kathryn

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by curiouslyminty

And I understand that it is not just ONE man. But his wife and close friends.

Sorry, you lost me here.

I still see it as jump of faith of monstrous proportions. A clarifyer(sp)- upon reading the book of mormon for the first time, did you immediately believe? or were you pursuaded by God or Man over time?

I'm sure it does. To me, the biggest leap of faith anyone has to take is believing that with God nothing is impossible. Once you get that one behind you, the rest is a piece of cake. I wish I could find the quote from Joseph Smith I'm thinking of, but I'm just not sure where to look. So, I'll paraphrase the best I can. He said something like, "I don't blame anybody for not believing my story. If I hadn't experienced what I did myself, I wouldn't believe it either."

If it helps, I won't respond but merely read I don't want to seem like im attacking.. however much it might look like it. I want to know why I do or don't believe!

There are several LDS posters here and I'm sure we'd all enjoy hearing your responses. I think the biggest help would be if you just didn't post too awfully many questions at once. It's sometimes pretty daunting to see a post that you know is going to take a full hour to respond to. One at a time and we'll get through it all.

Kathryn

[jonny]

A) Why does the Book of Mormon appear to claim to be superior to the Bible? It appears that way from the beginning but i have the passages written down somewhere. (I Nephi 13:26-40; 3:166-193)-ish Do you believe the book of mormon to trump the original bible? Even in Contradictions?

I have never seen any place where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. If you see anything you can point it out to me, but we've had thread after thread on the subject here and no one has ever pointed anything out to me. Usually when someone starts a thread there is the sound of silence. It's pretty funny, people are quick to attack, but slow to find proof.

I don't think that the Book of Mormon ever claims to be superior to the Bible. It does claim that all truth is not contained in the Bible. LDS members accept both books as scripture. One point with the Book of Mormon is that LDS members believe that it was written for us today. This is not necessarily true with the Bible. Most of the letters and things were written to the members of the ancient church. The authors of the Book of Mormon knew that they were writing for us.

B) Second are the things which mormons disbelieve that are taught in the Bible. Unblief in the virgin birth, neccessity of baptism, ect I can give verses for all these if needed. Same question as above basically.

Where did you get the idea the Mormons didn't believe in the virgin birth and in baptism being necessary? Our fourth article of faith is "We believe the first four principles and ordinances of the gospel are first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; Second, repentance, Third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

C) Third is the things that have had to be changed to fit with modern culture. (racism, polygamy, ect) Does it not seem rather odd to have a religion needing to be constantly modified by man? How do you personally find faith here?

I have never understood the racism, and yes it bothers me - but not any more than any the racism in our country's history bothers me. I never was alive when the church had these policies, so I can't comment on it. I've had black LDS friends and roommates who I've discussed with it and they seem to see it as a trial of faith for black members. In a way it was a trial of faith for the entire church. I don't know of anyone who wasn't excited about the revelation allowing blacks to have the priesthood and it is a day that is still celebrated in the church.

Many people don't realize that much of the persecution in the early days of the church (especially in Missouri) was as a result of the church being against slavery. Part of Joseph Smith's platform when he ran for president dealt with the abolition of slavery.

As for polygamy, it served its purpose in the church. One of our articles of faith discusses obeying the laws of the land. The states made it illegal so the church obeyed the laws. I can't say that I am against polygamy because I come from polygamist ancestors. I am glad that the church doesn't practice it any more, but I don't have a problem with the fact that it did.

I personally don't find it odd that a religion would change its policies. I am much more satisfied by a religion that believes that God still speaks and directs his church than I would be by any religion that believes that the heavens are closed and leaves the direction of the church up to man. In this I find great faith.

These all stem from the fact that my family was catholic as I was growing up. As soon as I hit puberty I remember having doubts and eventually pure skeptisism at the church. What I eventually found was I didnt have a problem with God.. I had trouble with the people attempting to add and subtract to it. When I see the more modern mormans i get the same feeling, but knowing that you all probably didnt just get born into a mormon family. Why did you become a believer?

I was born into the church and I never really doubted it until my mission. I had an enormous trial of my faith at one point and was just about finished with everything. When I really became a believer was when I got down on my knees and asked God if I was following the path that he would have me follow. The answer was clear and I have never doubted my path since.

Or maybe more of an mean question, but one that im thinking.. why do you believe one man's word? speaking of joseph smith. If the answer is a personal experience thats fine, I would still like to hear a few words. Thanks! and hopefully I'm not sounding rude

I don't believe one man's word. Like I said above, I got down on my knees and found out for myself - the details of which are very personal. I believe God's word and that's all I need.

Thanks for asking the questions so respectfully.

[jonny]

Above I noticed that you mentioned that you saw racism in the Book of Mormon. While it is true that there are a few references to skin color, I like to look at the Book of Mormon as a whole. It makes the indians a promised people of the Lord and puts us in the role of serving these people. I don't find this racist at all.

One scholar described the Book of Mormon as such - it is a "ruthlessly tragic narrative that chronicles the destruction of the white race and the fruition of the dark race."

From the sounds of your questions, you might be interested in reading Joseph Smith's new biography by Richard Bushman. It is written from a scholarly, not religious, angle, and covers many of the points that you brought up in your commentary.

[curiouslyminty]

Thanks for the response! I realize I was all over the map on my initial post but I feel almost bursting with confusing information. I actually did read the whole book albeit long.. (im single and displaced due to hurricane katrina, too much free time haha) My favorite part is vague since I didn't understand it all.

As for the views of racism (which is of key interest to me so I'll sit here for a bit) -

2 Nephi 5:21

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

So black = bad? I found myself searching online for thoughts from mormon leaders on the issue.

Brigham Young in his 'Journal of Discourses' -

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Vol. 7, pg. 290-291
Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed.

ok... so maybe he is just a mormon extremist?
1 Nephi 13:15

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

3 Nephi 2:15

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

Obviously white is better though..

The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. The Way to Perfection, p. 101

The Prophet Brigham Young

Shall I tell you the Law of God in regard to the African Race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the Law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110

Are these people who became so called prophets of the mormon church really inspired? When i read the old testiment I see the 'mark' given to cain. But it DOESN'T specify what it is. Isn't it a bit convenient that when racism is at its height prophets show up declaring that being Black is a curse?

Lastly in the book of moses enoch is creating a city so perfect that it was taken up into heaven! Which was interesting except for the fact that it says in Moses 7:22-23 This perfect city contained “a mixture of all the seed of Adam” except the seed of Cain, "for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them".

Luckily I do realize mormons see their fault. I read in a Salt Lake Tribune article from May 18, 1998 (library microfiche)
"…black members of the church in the United States as well as some Mormon scholars warn that the "racist legacy'' contained in various Mormon documents and authoritative statements risks undermining its mission unless they are disavowed. "In the absence of any official corrections, these speculative and pejorative ideas will continue to be perpetuated in the church indefinitely,'' Armand Mauss, president of the Mormon History Association

But not having happened yet.. Do you actually ascribe to me being less of a person based on skin color? Or that the scripture is outdated? Or that the prophets of that time were wrong? Or where do you go from there?

[Bishka]

Katzpur and Jonny you both are so awesome. I wish I could answer like you. Oh and to curiouslyminty. You are holding the prophets like they are infalliable, we know the prophets are men and falliable, just like every other man(other then Christ) has been. Prophets make mistakes, men make mistakes. Prophets are not without sin.