Resurrection of the dead (Jesus Christ, priests, ritual, Messiah, Torah)

[energize]

Hopefully good debating points can be gained from this discussion.

First, let me explain how I read the text of scripture about the resurrection. There is a need to differentiate between Jesus the man and "the body of Christ". Which was resurrected?

Read Matthew 11:4-5 " Go and show John again those things ye do hear and see; The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."

Now, if the dead were raised up while Christ was yet alive, then how can there be another resurrection? Instead, there is what was called "a second death", and not a second coming. For those who were raised-up, it was impossible for them to suffer a second death, for they were "in Christ", exalted, as at the beginning when their place and name were selected as the "elect" and "Gods chosen people" out of all the tribes of Israel. Note that it was not the Jews of Judah tribe which were the "elect" chosen to be priests, but that positioning of inheritance went forward in name of Levi, and that only the Levitical family was covenanted as "anointed" to be priests forever in Israel and their place at Jerusalem restored as seen when Christ cast the demons out and declared to the people, "the kingdom of heaven is come unto you".

How then did things become so confusing and taken out of Judaism?

[benjosh]

You raise some good questions here. And, I don't know that I want to debate any of your points. Rather, let's see if we can sharpen one another's understanding.

Your post is like a well stocked buffet.

Where does one start? You 've got some good Christianity vs Judaism stuff here.
The role of the Levites looks tempting.
But since you gave the topic resurrection of the dead. Let's chew on it.

First, let me explain how I read the text of scripture about the resurrection. There is a need to differentiate between Jesus the man and "the body of Christ". Which was resurrected?

The body of Christ is generally a term used to designate the church in the Christian terminology. The literal physical body of Jesus the CHrist is another matter. The Christ in Jesus' name denotes his annointing. If it is extended to include Messiah it is more like the one annointed above all.
ANd, of course all of Christianity and its derivatives hinges upon whether or not Jesus did actually arise fromthe dead. In other words, did he have the power to defeat death in his own life, and therefore have authority to extend that power to all on conditions he set forth?
So the differentation you speak of is, in my mind at least, a separation of the flesh of individual's from the corporate idea of a resurrection of a group of believers at some other time, previous or later.
Which leads us to your next quote

Read Matthew 11:4-5 " Go and show John again those things ye do hear and see; The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."

The raising of the dead here is probably a reference to what happened to Lazarus. And, I would assume that if Jesus did that, it wouldn't be necessary to record all other similar events during the life of his minsitry. When the miracle is of that magnitude there's no need to pile up a whole lot of evidence. If a person won't believe the first report they probably won't believe the others.
I think that differentation should answer your following quote.

Now, if the dead were raised up while Christ was yet alive, then how can there be another resurrection? Instead, there is what was called "a second death", and not a second coming.

So, looking at your next morsel from the buffet we bite on this

For those who were raised-up, it was impossible for them to suffer a second death, for they were "in Christ", exalted, as at the beginning when their place and name were selected as the "elect" and "Gods chosen people" out of all the tribes of Israel. Note that it was not the Jews of Judah tribe which were the "elect" chosen to be priests, but that positioning of inheritance went forward in name of Levi, and that only the Levitical family was covenanted as "anointed" to be priests forever in Israel and their place at Jerusalem restored as seen when Christ cast the demons out and declared to the people, "the kingdom of heaven is come unto you".

How then did things become so confusing and taken out of Judaism?

That's more than I can chew on right now because of time. But, we can get into that unfinished dessert later if you like.

BenJosh

[energize]

I suppose we can chew and spit at the same time.

How do you read Jesus as being "sent"? Supernatural birth or through his firstborn status in Levitical heritage? "What was 'conceived' in Mary was of the holy spirit."

Would you agree that the term "conceived" has its meaning in God's separating the Levites to be his inheritance and he theirs? This, at the beginning of Israel as a nation.

Or, you can believe that an invisible god impregnated Mary with invisible sperm, but would that not have created an invisible Jesus?

I look forward to your comments.

[benjosh]

HI Energize,

I know you've been asked before, but I've just gotta' bite . . . . are yout that drum beating bunny?

Now, that that's out of the way. . . . . on to more serious things.

Originally Posted by energize

How do you read Jesus as being "sent"?

Sent as an immortal spirit. That is what we all are.

Supernatural birth or through his firstborn status in Levitical heritage?

Do you place any stock in the scriptures? Can't really answer this question to your satisfaction unless you give it at least some merit.
Or do you accept the Torah, etc. but not the Brit hadashah New Testament?

I need to know which park you play in if you're going to let me in on a level field.

"What was 'conceived' in Mary was of the holy spirit." Would you agree that the term "conceived" has its meaning in God's separating the Levites to be his inheritance and he theirs? This, at the beginning of Israel as a nation.

I have great respect for the separating of the Levitical firstborn tribe. Jesus' lineage is not from Levi and this is stated in the NT.

Or, you can believe that an invisible god impregnated Mary with invisible sperm, but would that not have created an invisible Jesus?

The virgin birth is in the realm of what many people call miraculous.

The impregnation of Mary is part of the intelligent design scenario. This concerns the interaction of spirit and matter which we are all comprised of.

You have asked some very deep questions and they won't be answered in drive by posts.

Looking forward to you r comments as well. BenJosh

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by energize

Hopefully good debating points can be gained from this discussion.

First, let me explain how I read the text of scripture about the resurrection. There is a need to differentiate between Jesus the man and "the body of Christ". Which was resurrected?

Read Matthew 11:4-5 " Go and show John again those things ye do hear and see; The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."

Now, if the dead were raised up while Christ was yet alive, then how can there be another resurrection? Instead, there is what was called "a second death", and not a second coming. For those who were raised-up, it was impossible for them to suffer a second death, for they were "in Christ", exalted, as at the beginning when their place and name were selected as the "elect" and "Gods chosen people" out of all the tribes of Israel. Note that it was not the Jews of Judah tribe which were the "elect" chosen to be priests, but that positioning of inheritance went forward in name of Levi, and that only the Levitical family was covenanted as "anointed" to be priests forever in Israel and their place at Jerusalem restored as seen when Christ cast the demons out and declared to the people, "the kingdom of heaven is come unto you".

How then did things become so confusing and taken out of Judaism?

I don't think it's confusing, although, I'm not sure who will feel the same way that I do...

Jesus Christ performed miracles such as raising the dead in LIFE because of the Holy Spirit within him. He was sent by God to show us HOW to live and WHAT we would be able to do through his death and resurrection when we accept HIM. Healing, teaching, raising from the dead, casting out demons...these were his works...this was GOD working directly through him...showing us what's possible IN GOD.

Now, if the dead were raised up while Christ was yet alive, then how can there be another resurrection?

I believe these indivudals were brought back from the dead by Jesus to SHOW others the Glory of God...to SHOW people while he was living what we would be able to do through HIS death and resurrection. Does that make any sense?

Jesus was also sent to shed his Blood for us...HIS RESURRECTION made God's plan for our salvation complete. Jesus didn't resurrect MASSES of people prior to His own death and resurrection...and for those that he DID resurrect, he did so to SHOW us the Glory of GOD. And through HIS resurrection...and belief in him...we actually have the SAME GOD...the SAME abilities within US to walk on water, cast out demons, heal...raise the dead, etc.

Jesus was our living, breathing instructional manual...and now he's like the Great Spiritual Instructional manual

Truly, as far as the "elect" is concerned...I let God worry about that. He promised me salvation when I believe in Jesus Christ....and I do...

Jesus told us that we would do HIS works but also GREATER works. I think collectively, what we lack is the faith to fully grasp how awesome that really is.

And yet again...Dawn has probably failed to answer any of the questions that were asked by the original poster... I rock, don't I?

[energize]

Hi BenJosh

So, you think we're immortal spirits? I couldn't disagree with you more. We are but dust in the wind, as the song says.

Do I place any stock in the scriptures? Yes. The story is Jewish and within that context of people should the story be examined. Jesus was a Jew but he was also a Levite priest, just as his cousin John the Baptist. Do you understand the Levite priesthood? That the firstborn sons were dedicated to God? That the priesthood presents "the only begotton son" emphasing the Levite election as priests?

I play in both ball parks of KJV. Are you Jewish or other? You are aware I'm an Atheist?

Where in NT have you found that Jesus was not in lineaged Levites?

Aaha, you mentioned Intelligent Design, that invented psycho-science developed in the mind of evangelicals so as to deceive the public. You consider that to be a science? I consider it as BS. Are you a card carrying member of the Christian Right?

If your mind is not conditioned to only quote scripture then we can discuss more clearly the meaning of this story in its form. I don't mind quotes but parroting without comprehension is boring. And I'm sure we can incease one anothers knowledge concerning "the mysteries" of the kingdom of heaven.

[energize]

Dawny

You are understanding the resurrection of the dead as a physical event of embodied corpses coming back to life. I don't read the story in that vein, and see "exaltation" as being the resurrection. What was involved with being exalted "up on high"? It implied an honor system which status was "above" every other tribal name in Israel. Thus the priesthood of anointed Levites named were above the other tribal names and seen as the "light" unto the nations-tribes of Israel. As teachers in Israel, the Levite priests were those who guided the path to righteousness. The entire body of priests are called "anointed" meaning, "the body of Christ". And it is this body which was "raised up" out of their dead state not to suffer a second death. The figures of speech used in expression and symbols of references are seen in the storylines. Jesus spoke in parables so that the multitude of people would not understand. Doesn't make sense does it? Not until you understand why he used parables in the first place.

[benjosh]

HI, Energize,

Thanks for the very interesting reply.

Now, that I know your ball park I know where to hit. Well, not hit. I know where to buy the hotdogs and I"ll buy you one so we can sit down and talk as friends.

You are kind of unique. An atheist who puts stock in the Old and New Testament. Your references to the Levites made me wonder if your a Messianic Jewish believer, as in Jewish roots of Christianity.

You said,

So, you think we're immortal spirits? I couldn't disagree with you more. We are but dust in the wind, as the song says.

Hey, I identify with the song. But I don't identify with a separation of the dust with the wind of immortal spirit that blows it around. You identify with the dust but not the wind.

I am dust but I know what moves me.

You asked

Do you understand the Levite priesthood? That the firstborn sons were dedicated to God?

Yes, I understand this but am not sure I understand fully what you mean by the following

That the priesthood presents "the only begotton son" emphasing the Levite election as priests?

Please enlighten me.

Then you asked.

Are you Jewish or other?

I am other. I am Ephriamite.


You also asked a question that I appreciate. And, I will tell you why I appreciate it. Our posts can actually be an exchange of information that helps us both grow in our understanding of things. Some of the post exchanges I've participated in were more like drive bys. Somebody spouts something they know absolutely nothing about. I try to engage them in a reasonable conversation and they only come back to fire a couple of shots and run on to the next block. . where they do the same thing to somebody else.

So, here is your appreciated question.

Where in NT have you found that Jesus was not in lineaged Levites?

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by
the Levitical priesthood, (for under
it the people received the law,)
what further need was there that
another priest should rise after the
order of Melchizedek, and not be
called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being
changed, there is made of necessity
a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things
are spoken pertaineth to another
tribe, of which no man gave attendance
at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord
sprang out of Juda; of which tribe
Moses spake nothing concerning
priesthood.

In the following quote I think you are almost jumping to a stereotyping conclusion about me because I mentioned intelligent design.

Aaha, you mentioned Intelligent Design, that invented psycho-science developed in the mind of evangelicals so as to deceive the public.You consider that to be a science? I consider it as BS. Are you a card carrying member of the Christian Right?

I am not a card carrying member of the Christian Right. Nor do I think the Christian Right has been deceiving by their development of it. Intelligent design has arisen from science and many Christians are trying to ride it for their agenda.

The truth of the horse they're riding doesn't make it their horse.

Like your focus on the dust and not the wind. . . . . I think that in Intelligent Design you see the Christian Right riding the horse but you don't check the brand on the horse. It just might be stolen , pardner !

My mind is not conditioned to only quote scripture and I think you'll find that I've emptied my mind shop of almost all the parrots, especially the ones the religious institutions sent. I used to have a bunch of them and I sent them away. Not because they were boring. . . . they were stupid and argued with each other a lot. The only parrots I have left are more mediatative and calm.

I look forward to your reply.

BenJosh

[dawny0826]

This one is going right on over my red head but I wanted to say frubals to you both for one interesting thread...

[energize]

Hi Dawny

hang in there Dawny, it gets easier as we string things along.