Is Hell just? (punishment, reject, gospel, Mormonism, LDS)

[Khale]

Originally Posted by may

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

Does this mean that God is a being of pure gumdrop goodness? Or Couldn't it also mean that no matter what God does it can not be considered just or unjust as he is the one that defies justice.

A judge may find it just to put a man to death for stealing an apple. I can assure you that the convicted has different beliefs.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Of a Happy Ending

If Hellfire is a "false, made up lie," then prove it biblically; and I don't mean pulling out all the verses that include God and love, please spare your concordance theology. Prove that "hell" does not exist or that it is a doctrine made by men.

Brandon

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

[Solon]

Originally Posted by nutshell

We live in a fallen world. "Impartial fairness" is not part of this world, but part of the judgement we receive. Compared to the eternal glory that awaits us, disasters such as Katrina and the Tsunami are insignificant in the big picture.

What is Eternal glory ?

S

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by michel

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

I can't prove that it exists without using Scripture. Scripture is the sole authority on which to base all doctrinal ideas. If a JW says there is no hell, then they must do it using the Bible as the basis.

However, if its a philosophical point you want, then you have to ask the right question.

Brandon

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by michel

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

Physically, hell has no location. To place a physical location on a spiritual reality is fallacy. Hell, my friend, is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. It is the ultimate destination of all those whose names are not in the book of life.

If you are referring to Jesus' illustration of gehenna, then gehenna was a place of refuse near Jerusalem. He used this figure metaphorically in referencing the final destruction of Satan and his angels.

See, I can't define Hell without Scripture.

Brandon

[Abram]

Originally Posted by michel

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

What if hell is here and now. Can you imagine being stuck in this world for eternity after knowing there is a God. All your disires would consume you, Knowing that the good job, or the nice car, or the hot girlfriend/boyfriend will never bring you true happiness.
So God never sends us there, we're here. He just offered a way out.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Abram

What if hell is here and now. Can you imagine being stuck in this world for eternity after knowing there is a God. All your disires would consume you, Knowing that the good job, or the nice car, or the hot girlfriend/boyfriend will never bring you true happiness.
So God never sends us there, we're here. He just offered a way out.

I have often thought of Earth as being hell, but maybe that is just the way I see my own life on Earth...................

[Abram]

Originally Posted by michel

I have often thought of Earth as being hell, but maybe that is just the way I see my own life on Earth...................

Me as well... When he kicked Adam (us) out of heaven he had to go somewhere? If it's not eden then where?

Also in this view it makes God "just and fair"

[Super Universe]

Here is the hell theory as I understand it: God makes universe for sentient beings. These sentient beings are then tested by God's enemy, the devil, to see if they will obey God's rules. If they do not obey then God sentences them to endless torture.

It's typical primitive Old Testament theory. It attributes weak human traits to God. It talks about a God full of anger, who wants revenge and is jealous of the beings He created. Something impossible. Jesus said "forgive your enemy". This and His other teachings all simply rewrote the book.

Do you test your children? If they fail, could you sentence them to eternal torture?

Any parent knows that this would be impossible. How is God any less caring of us?

Now that does not mean that there is no justice in the universe, the angels do punish but not at our level, it's only done at their level because they know better. We are primitive intelligence and our existence is temporary unless we earn the right to the next step on the long journey. If we have not chosen to be moral then our soul never fuses with our human personality and after death the soul returns to the source while our personality ceases to exist.

Would you tell primitive humans that there is no punishment from God? There would be utter chaos. Even today, if we did not have police our world would be one continous riot. I don't blame the revealers of the Old Testament theory but today we have a choice.

A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us?

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us?

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First, you presented a fallacy there at the end. "A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us" is a false dichotomy. There is always at least a third option. In this case, there most certainly is.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

[size=2]Here is the hell theory as I understand it: God makes universe for sentient beings. These sentient beings are then tested by God's enemy, the devil, to see if they will obey God's rules. If they do not obey then God sentences them to endless torture.

The primary problem with this understanding is that it is not true. The devil does not test sentient beings to see if they obey God's rules. Rather, the devil simply wants to ensure that no one renigs on their rejection of God. As we are born naturally rejecting God, the devil simply wants to ensure that that position remains the same and that no one turns to the God that we all, at the beginning of our lives, hate.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

It's typical primitive Old Testament theory. It attributes weak human traits to God. It talks about a God full of anger, who wants revenge and is jealous of the beings He created. Something impossible. Jesus said "forgive your enemy". This and His other teachings all simply rewrote the book.

First of all, the OT is the basis of all NT theology, to call it "primitive" in the sense that it has been replaced with something new is also a misconception. Jesus Himself said, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." Jesus did not "rewrite" the book, rather, He enhanced it to make more evident its original meaning. That meaning points to the fact that no one can be good enough to earn God's grace. That grace is bestowed upon people as they call upon God and is totally dependent on God, not man's doing. All men must do is turn to the God that they have rejected.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Do you test your children? If they fail, could you sentence them to eternal torture?

My mom always told me that if I committed a murder, she would be the first person to turn me in, because she loves me. When we reject God, He gives us exactly what we want. He leaves us alone. He is not necessarily punishing us, He is giving us over to our own desires. That desire is for ourselves rather than for Him.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Any parent knows that this would be impossible. How is God any less caring of us?

God cares for us much more than our parents do. Jesus asked, "If you know how to give good gifts how much more does your Father in Heaven?" But, in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the father did not chase his son, rather he waited for his son to return to him. God does the same with humanity. If we die after having turned from Him, then we die without Him. In that, He is perfectly just in allowing us to spend the rest of eternity separated from Him.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Now that does not mean that there is no justice in the universe, the angels do punish but not at our level, it's only done at their level because they know better. We are primitive intelligence and our existence is temporary unless we earn the right to the next step on the long journey. If we have not chosen to be moral then our soul never fuses with our human personality and after death the soul returns to the source while our personality ceases to exist.

Would you tell primitive humans that there is no punishment from God? There would be utter chaos. Even today, if we did not have police our world would be one continous riot. I don't blame the revealers of the Old Testament theory but today we have a choice.

I'm not sure I see your connection here, but claiming that we as human beings cannot be held responsible for our actions against God because we are lower than the angels and they "know better" is kind of a cop out. Humans know very well what morality is. In fact, God has made it easy for man to be made perfect. And I'm really not sure how the whole "soul and personality" thing is relevant. As far as that goes, I think we would have to be on the same page to even discuss the matter. As it goes, that is not the witness of the Bible and I cannot hold that argument as authoritative at all.

Brandon