Is Hell just? (punishment, reject, gospel, Mormonism, LDS)

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

I think it somewhat illusory to consider a so-called "god" to be "just".

"Just" would imply impartial fairness. I have my doubts that the folks who survived Kartrina or the Tsunami last Christmas would agree. Were all those people deserving of what happened to their lives? I can't say. Neither can anyone else.

I also have my doubts religious types would agree. It is my feeling that if one needs a Hell in order to appreciate a Heaven then it time to re-examine ones values.

Many have already condemned me to the Islamic Hellfire as well as the Christian Hell. I just hope there is enough of me to go around.

There are two problems with the above statement.

1. It assumes that God is directly responsible for all occurrences on Earth.

2. It assumes that human beings are innocent.

My answers:

1. God is not directly responsible for all things that occur on the earth. He created a system in His creation that maintains itself. As a part of that system, weather happens. God does not "create" hurricanes.

2. Men are by no means innocent. We are all guilty of sin and rejecting God, and, as a result, we are deserving of what comes. As a result of the Fall, man became subject to nature, and nature went awry.

Furthermore, Hell is not necessary to appreciate Heaven, that is a misconception. Hell was, in fact, never intended for men, but, because men have separated themselves from God through rejection of Him, that is their ultimate destination apart from the shed blood of Christ.

Brandon

[Khale]

Originally Posted by Of a Happy Ending

What do you mean "its not going to matter once you get there?"

Brandon

What I mean to say is this:

If heaven or hell exist, and if you find yourself in one or the other. Then I don't believe you're previous life will matter or be remembered. You are talking of places of extremes.

One, heaven, is a place of extreme bliss. The people that go there will be too enraptured by the mere presence of God to care about what they had done with there life. To them heaven was how it always was.

The other, hell, is a place of extreme suffering. The people that go there will be to busy with whatever awaits them there. In the end anything that happened on earth doesn't matter. Your everything will be hell.

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by Khale

What I mean to say is this:

If heaven or hell exist, and if you find yourself in one or the other. Then I don't believe you're previous life will matter or be remembered. You are talking of places of extremes.

One, heaven, is a place of extreme bliss. The people that go there will be too enraptured by the mere presence of God to care about what they had done with there life. To them heaven was how it always was.

The other, hell, is a place of extreme suffering. The people that go there will be to busy with whatever awaits them there. In the end anything that happened on earth doesn't matter. Your everything will be hell.

That's an interesting perspective, but I don't think it holds water biblically. We are told that men will be judged "according to what they did." I might agree with C.S. Lewis here in his conception of Hell. In the book The Great Divorce Lewis describes Hell as a place where people are locked into the selfishness that they exhibited during life. In Hell, it is as though a person has caved in on himself, totally absorbed in himself. He makes an excellent illustration with a woman who wants to find her son, but only for her own benefit. She would feign caring for another so that her desires would be met.

In Heaven, accordingly, men will be rewarded for their works on earth.

The life lived now will certainly matter in both eternal destinations.

Brandon

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by nutshell

Compared to the eternal glory that awaits us, disasters such as Katrina and the Tsunami are insignificant in the big picture.

Eternal glory, eh. The end justifies the means. The only thing fallen about our world is the level of intellect of people espousing these beliefs.

Keep your glory. I have no need of it.

[Khale]

Originally Posted by Of a Happy Ending

That's an interesting perspective, but I don't think it holds water biblically. We are told that men will be judged "according to what they did." I might agree with C.S. Lewis here in his conception of Hell. In the book The Great Divorce Lewis describes Hell as a place where people are locked into the selfishness that they exhibited during life. In Hell, it is as though a person has caved in on himself, totally absorbed in himself. He makes an excellent illustration with a woman who wants to find her son, but only for her own benefit. She would feign caring for another so that her desires would be met.

In Heaven, accordingly, men will be rewarded for their works on earth.

The life lived now will certainly matter in both eternal destinations.

Brandon

The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

Eternal glory, eh. The end justifies the means. The only thing fallen about our world is the level of intellect of people espousing these beliefs.

Keep your glory. I have no need of it.

Then why on earth do you post in the Biblical Debate forum?

Please, don't respond if this nonsense is going to characterize your posts. There is an appropriate place for a real discussion of those issues. This is not it.

Brandon

[may]

i would say it is not very just of human beings to make up lies about God . i wonder what he thinks about people who make up lies about him especially religious leaders who lead the flocks in to falsehood

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by Khale

The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

Careful, you're sounding awfully Calvinistic here. Of course, you may be right, and you may be wrong. I suppose it might be possible to track my responses to stimuli, but there will always be surprises.

Regarding God's omniscience, I believe there are two possibilities.

One, we are now living at the edge of time and omniscience applies to reality. In that view, God knows all things that are now real and all possibilities for the future. Being that God is limitless, it is possible that He knows not only all things now occurring, but all things that are possible to occur. From that point, every decision made limits the future possibilities. Based on that, it would be possible to predict the future and even to force events to happen based on foreknowledge of all possible events.

The second possibility is that, yes, everything is predetermined based upon God's omniscience.

In either case, the book of Revelation is clear. In chapter 20, books will be open that reveal all the deeds of a man in his life. The chapter then reads that all men will be judged accordingly. The ultimate registry book, however, is the book of life. Regardless of what is in the other books, eternal residence will depend on one's name being recorded in this book.

Brandon

[Of a Happy Ending]

Originally Posted by may

i would say it is not very just of human beings to make up lies about God . i wonder what he thinks about people who make up lies about him especially religious leaders who lead the flocks in to falsehood

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

If Hellfire is a "false, made up lie," then prove it biblically; and I don't mean pulling out all the verses that include God and love, please spare your concordance theology. Prove that "hell" does not exist or that it is a doctrine made by men.

Brandon

[Abram]

Originally Posted by Khale

The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

You might be dead on here. What if it is all predetermind.

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast." Rev 17:8