Animals, a soul, and free will (Jesus, moral, Creator, Earth)

[Ardhanariswar]

yes and it also said that God created man and woman in the middle of the garden of eden and walked with them. *cough* woman was made from the rib. *cough* are we made from dust? are our cells labeled *dust*? *more coughs*

ya, so saying that God gave souls to only men is not very credible, is it.

[cardero]

A nice rule of thumb is if the physical entity (human or animal or plant) breathes (exposed to the physical environment) or lives or grows or thinks or evolves or exists it contains a soul.

The only difference between other entities and humans are their PURPOSE. I believe animals have free will but still require some insistence from other BEings. Sin does not exist.

[Paw]

In Islam, we don't believe they have souls and free will. We have the decision to believe in Allah or to disbelieve in Him. If we could talk to animals, they wouldn't say: "I disbelieve in Allah." They would say the exact opposite. Also, you don't see them building cities in the near future and you don't see them suddenly thinking: "Wait, maybe this human doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him." What he thinks is:"Human. They're killers. Must run away."

[Druidus]

If we could talk to animals, they wouldn't say: "I disbelieve in Allah." They would say the exact opposite.

How do you know this without talking to them? I know of a parrot who said the exact opposite of what you believe they would say. He went on and on about how God was coming to get him, making jokes and all. Later on, he said, "I don't believe in God." I'm not sure where you could find this, I read it this summer, and listened to the sound clip of the conversation. I'm sure you could find it if you searched for something like "parrot and God" though. How can you possibly say that you know what something else believes?

Also, you don't see them building cities in the near future

Do they need them? No. If an evolutionary need for cities arose, it would evolve over time (a long time).

you don't see them suddenly thinking: "Wait, maybe this human doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him."

That's because the maybe is too high of a chance to take. If you say a man with an AK47 running down your street, would you just think "Wait, maybe he doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him." No, because it is illogical. However, some people possess an ability to calm non-humans, and are able to make it seem as if some non-humans think that way.

[Ardhanariswar]

we are all part of God, a universal divine spirit that unites us all, whether we awknowledge it or not. there is something out there.... too much proof for it.

[Doc]

[quote=Druidus]An orca will eat a turtle every now and then, if it comes across one. Many don't even see a turtle there entire lives, but they will eat them yet. Turtles are the natural prey of an orca, simply because all flesh is natural prey to an orca. Similarily, any flesh is natural prey to a polar bear. We are flesh, we are prey.


Actually, I have three pet box turtles all of which are the most innocent creatures that I know of. I am a vegetarian and pride myself as the only one in the family. I think it is quite arrogant to say that because we are the so called 'superior species' then we own the world and do with it what we want. I believe that animals have a conscious and free will and intellect. Not many can successfully argue that point. Just read "Animal Minds" by Donald Griffin being one of the first people to prove animal intellect. One example is a gorilla using a sharp stone to break open a coconut in the wild. They are smarter than we think. Smarter than us! We pride ourselves on our great empires and industries, but in the end our ignorance plunders the world of its beauty.

[Ceridwen018]

Well Doc, maybe that's why we don't eat gorillas.

It seems interesting that we don't eat animals which are considered to be more intelligent than others, or which provide love and companionship to us.

[Doc]

You would not believe how loving these turtles can be even if they do not try to be! I talk to mine like they are just regular people in my house! I think people have a harder time eating and killing animals if they actually had known that animal and learned to love them!

[Ardhanariswar]

they may be smart, but they do not have a sense of right and wrong. they only act on instinct. unless if you say a tad bit of morality is involved in instinct, but i doubt that. a lion, after killing the deer for his meal does not go into phsyciatric coucenling, or get tried by other members of his pride/pack.

[Druidus]

Actually, I have three pet box turtles all of which are the most innocent creatures that I know of. I am a vegetarian and pride myself as the only one in the family. I think it is quite arrogant to say that because we are the so called 'superior species' then we own the world and do with it what we want. I believe that animals have a conscious and free will and intellect. Not many can successfully argue that point. Just read "Animal Minds" by Donald Griffin being one of the first people to prove animal intellect. One example is a gorilla using a sharp stone to break open a coconut in the wild. They are smarter than we think. Smarter than us! We pride ourselves on our great empires and industries, but in the end our ignorance plunders the world of its beauty.

I'm a vegan, the only one in my family. My aunt is vegetarian though. I, too, believe that they are concious and intelligent, however, I do stop at a point. Ants don't have the same level of conciousness that a dolphin does. I have a pet parrot, a Timneh African Grey, to be exact. Her name is "Darwin". She is amazingly intelligent. She soon may be able to count(Even this is young for her, she's not even a year old, and they can live for over 100 years!). You won't get any arguments from me on the point that non-humans are inferior. I believe in the equality of all beings, and I pride myself on never intentionally (directly or indirectly) contributed to the death of anything (other then some vegetable species) in near one year now. You must have misinterpreted my post. In no way do I feel I am superior to non-humans.

Well Doc, maybe that's why we don't eat gorillas.

Unfortuneately, some people poach and eat them.

It seems interesting that we don't eat animals which are considered to be more intelligent than others

Pigs are the seventh or sixth smartest animal in the world...

they may be smart, but they do not have a sense of right and wrong. they only act on instinct.

How can you say this? I have seen the sense of right or wrong within my bird and my dog. Moreso in my bird, who has felt GUILT. Why is it that you can presume to know how and why a being does something? Sure, maybe insects and other "dumb" non-humans act one instinct, but certainly, the "higher" forms do not. It is terribly anthropocentric to believe so.

a lion, after killing the deer for his meal does not go into phsyciatric coucenling

Neither do human hunters. I guess they don't have morality either.

or get tried by other members of his pride/pack.

Probably because, like humans now, the lion doesn't consider deer worthy of status. They do have a form of justice, if, say, a lion kills another, completely unwarrented. That lion is now the target of abuse.