Animals, a soul, and free will (Jesus, moral, Creator, Earth)

[painted wolf]

well, if not a soul this dog has a lot of spirit/heart what have you...
she lost her front legs due to a birth defect and has learned to move about on just her hind legs.. she can run, walk, jump otherwise get around quite well.

http://www.news-star.com/stories/080303/New_66.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3641338.stm

Her name by the way is Faith.

wa:do

[HelpMe]

Originally Posted by Druidus

The catch is, we aren't allowed to use the bible, or any other religious work or belief, or evolution. I'll start with a few showing why they do.

1. Because their anatomy and brain structure is so similar to ours.
2. Because they feel pain. Why have pain if you have no soul?
3. Because life is life, and why should one life be different?

1their brain structure is actually very different.
2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.
3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?

Originally Posted by FeathersinHair

but I don't believe I ever said anything about it not being a bible-based discussion.

for the both of you.

the path to this discussion is as follows:

Religious Education > Debate > Biblical Debates > Animals, a soul, and free will


--S

[Fra.Morelia]

Okay, hate to jump in so late, but i think a coyote chewing off a trapped limb is an example of withstanding pain. I have seen snakes (which I believe are quite noble, stoic animals) withstand horrid wounds (for no better reason than they were snakes) and just sit and endure the recuperation. No whining, crying and grousing. If anything, I believe animals are far better at withstanding pain. I would say humans are the ones with a choice NOT to withstand it.
HelpMe, you are right, however, that this is a biblical debate and much of what has been said is highly out of place. There are other forums and threads for other trains of thought.

[Druidus]

1their brain structure is actually very different.

Actually, the underlying brain structure in mammals, and primates especially, is amazingly similar to ours. Show me where someone claims they are very different.

2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.

Of course they can choose to withstand it. What the hell do you mean?

3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?

If we respect the plants then it's ok to eat them. If you want, you could be a fruitarian. It's the natural diet of most primates like us, plus fruits are the only food given freely.

[Feathers in Hair]

Originally Posted by HelpMe

1their brain structure is actually very different.
2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.
3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?



for the both of you.

the path to this discussion is as follows:

Religious Education > Debate > Biblical Debates > Animals, a soul, and free will

--S

I'm very sorry if I've offended, but please take a look once again at what I'd written. " but I don't believe I ever said anything about it not being a bible-based discussion." (Italics added this time.) That was rather the point of my post.

[Greyson]

One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
SOGFPP~Please clarify that I may understand. You say 'the affection due only to persons..I love mine wife with everything that I am, just as I do my Father God, yet i'm supposed to reserve showing affection to my puppy because she isn't human? On that note as well, what makes persons more deserving of affection than animals? Are persons Grateful to God that Christ died for our sins? Many of them are not. Are they more deserving than animals? I have to respectfully disagree.

[HelpMe]

i'm not offended at all, thanks though.


4 posts, 0 biblical references, 0 replies from me

enjoy

--S

[seraphimfire]

To try and answer your question Pah, animals are innocent and sin not! If animals suffer it is because of man and his sin!
I was facinated by the studies in the 60's useing sensitive equipment to register pain in a plant that had been cut and also the reation of plants when music was played near them! Remember the movie "Powder"? I was on the road many years ago when a deer was hit by a semi in front of me and I stopped and it had a broken back. I looked in it's eyes and at that moment I could understand all it was feeling! I really loved the story of the "Horse Wisperer" and I wonder if it was always that way? Ionce looked into the eyes of a wolf and I saw our Creator staring back at me!
Animals must have "souls" the word is Greek but I can't spell it, Psuce?? means mind will and emotions! As to haveing a spirit I don't understand that, only maybe they have a life from God that's uniqe to them!? There is so much more but i must sign off!

[oisin3]

In Ireland there are Ghosts of dogs to be seen on the country roads.

[roli]

To be perfectly honest, God did not breathe the breath (spirit)of life into the animals, but says," he blew into man the breath of life". Gen 2:7
Which means, His spirit was placed in man at creation.
We were created in his image and likenesss with his attributes to worship him with praise.
The animals were created for our pleasure and enjoyment and there were no animals who dominated , preyed over and attacked other creatures including man. Animals did not eat the weak and sick, because there was no sickness ,disease or death.
Creation was not perverted IN THE BEGINNING
But when sin entered the world thru one man ( Adam) death ,spiritual death also came and separated us, animals and all creation from createor God. We have become corrupt and violated straying from God's purpose and plan.
Today those who have sin in there life have become , according to scripture, alienated from God, as well as all creation, including animals