Romans 1 (Jesus Christ, ritual, Creator, gospel, crucifixion)

[Aqualung]

Well, I got kind of tired of debating the Old TEstament, so I decided I would start on the new. I think the Epistles will be the funnest to debate, so I'll start with Romans.

Paul, a servandt of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures)
3 Concerning his son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was make of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurection from the dead:
5 By whome we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God realed from faith to faith: as it it written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And chaged the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of thei own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themseves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto the vile affections: for even their women did change the natureal use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemily, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as tey did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them.

I like how paul always has like 3 billion word intoductions.

These are the verses that strike me
1 - Apostle isn't just a title you can take on yourself. You have to be called to be an apostle. And God does call apostles, even after the original twelve.
4 - the spirit witnesses to us the truth of Christ and his resurection/atonement.
Towards the end we get into the whole "gay debate" thing-y. I'd like to steer clear of that for this debate, since there are about a billion threads you could go to if you wanted to talk about that.

[glasgowchick]

Apostle isn't just a title you can take on yourself. You have to be called to be an apostle. And God does call apostles, even after the original twelve.

I agree that an Apostle isn't just a title you can take on yourself, Apostles were people who were chosen by God to do a particular mission, But to be an apostle [ one of the 12 ] one would have to have been there from the begining of Jesus ministry..Ok who do you see as being an apostle of today and what would be the sign of a true apostle...

the spirit witnesses to us the truth of Christ and his resurection/atonement.

I agree that the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth...

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by glasgowchick

I agree that an Apostle isn't just a title you can take on yourself, Apostles were people who were chosen by God to do a particular mission, But to be an apostle [ one of the 12 ] one would have to have been there from the begining of Jesus ministry..Ok who do you see as being an apostle of today and what would be the sign of a true apostle...

Paul wasn't there.

[joeboonda]

Paul met Jesus as a blinding light on the road to damascus and was a true apostle with sign, wonders, and miracles following. Don't see any of that today, and I dont believe there are apostles today, and having said that, I do not want to argue with a mormon on the subject nor do I mean to make them mad. So I bid you adieu.

[Aqualung]

Ah, yes. The infamous "Pulling a joeboonda." come in, say something, present no evidence for that, and then run and hide.

[Scuba Pete]

Saying that Paul wasn't there is highly misleading. He, after all, studied in Jerusalem under Gamaliel and was probably there during the crucifixion. Although, I think it completely escaped his attention until AFTER the fact since he didn't see Jesus until his trip to Damascus...

I Corinthians 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. NIV

This indicates that Paul was the "last of the line". I also think it notable that we were given the "qualifications" for both elders and deacons and NOT for apostles. We do have this:

II Corinthians 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong! NIV

I don't see this happening today.

Revelations 2 indicates that they tested men who CLAIMED to be an apostle and weren't. It is my humble belief that the age of the apostles was over during the first century.

[Aqualung]

Sure, netdoc. But I was replying that to be an apostle you had to be one of the original twelve, and that there are no other apostles other than the twelve. And this is just not true.

[Scuba Pete]

My problem with Paul's writings is to be able to figure out when he was expressing God's will and when he was merely expressing his own. Sometimes he CLEARLY made the distinction and other times it is not so. Again, remember that Paul was FIRST a Pharisee and it is obvious that he was the most "learned" of the apostles. I wonder if this made him more inclined to "preach" what he thought was right, rather than the freedom we have in Christ. I see this many a time in the NT, like when Paul rebuked Peter for bigotry. The apostles were FAR from being perfect: just inspired.

[Scuba Pete]

I undestand your point AL. What makes an apostle in your eyes?