ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM: (Jesus, punishment)

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Just FYI... I'm sure you have no interest in learning about Christianity, but most of us believe:
"...(T)he Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living" (St. Bernard).

If I didn't why do I have over a 1000 dollars worth of books on various sources of Christianity and four our five very different bibles which I had to pay for.

christianity is what is to be defined in terms of the Christian belief through the context and meaning of what is contained in the what they beleive to be word of God. 'Through the saying of events in Jesus's live and mission on earth. True or not true.

So if the word is living today where is he. Can I speak with him. Explain better what that means. Are you saying Christianity is not based on what is contained in the bible. Or is Christianity Jesus for isn't he the one who is incarnate and living. If he is living where is he now. How do I speak to him and how do I know it is him answering back and not some devil or demon.

What can't the Koran be enough for you?

It is as I have said many times.

Why must Muslims attack the Christian faith?

I do not but when someone is constantly telling me it is the absolute truth from God then I have to question that and tell them to prove it from what you have.

What do you believe is lacking in the Koran that it can't stand on its own merit, but must be promoted by a process of elimination?

As I have said many times the Quran is sufficient for me and others I am sure. We are not promoting anything. You "Christians" say your book is from God and it is absolute truth and should be perfect so then as Muslims we have to decide which side of christianity is more correct and whose bible and very different dogmas to accept for you know they are different. Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, NIV, NRSV etc. etc. all have very significant differences. Some say son of god only, some say he is God. Answer me then, teach me which is correct. Now you as Christians cannot decide for you do not know whose interpretation is closer to the meaning and context of Jesus and his companions understanding of the Gospel.

I am interested in learning about Christianity but only in the one that is correct. Why should I listen to something made up by some people for whatever reason. Do that make since. Are the one's who first created what me have as far as the bible the closest. Why do they differ. Why are the scriptures different in different time. why are there verses removed and taken from. Give me the answer I want to learn. Scholars say because 'PEOPLE" NOT GOD changed them for their own reasons and desires.

Seriously, Scott you and a few others seem to have most of knowledge so teach me if you want me to learn. Now just don't feed me doctrines or dogmas or principles established by the church. If the church says something it should be validated by the bible and not contradict itself in other spots and validate in others. There should be a consensus amongst bibles and scholars on this is what it is saying.

why are sholars writing books saying it has been corrupted what am I supposed to think. and they are giving proof from actual documents and statements from those in the past.


This is the problem since you do not know the proper context according to Jesus it is difficult to understand what is said. The interpretation is from someone who had not even met Jesus whether it was Paul, Luke, Matthew, John, or Mark. Then their interpretation is not is what is given it is someone elses interpretation of their intpretation. True or not true. Who's interpretation is more valid which groups testimony should I accept and what is the evidence as to why I should. Did Jesus authorize these people to interpret his words or alter it after he entrusted the authorization to someone. Even if you can prove Paul had authorization. Who authorized the alterations after him. The original KJV has been altered by someone who was not King James. I mean what are these people doing to the "word of God" to where they can change and alter and no one complains or says Hey you can't do that. They just take it as is.

I do not try and discredit Christianity but when you make a statement saying this is what God said and this and that. I need the evidence. Teach me brother I am truly willing to learn. But give me something. Give me one scholar who gives a explanation to all this. You tell me who?

When someone gave me a quran once and said this is the truth from God, me being a skeptic which I am to this day even in my own religion, I told him to prove it to me. And after some times and looking at all the evidence and not listening to what other people who hated or was against Islam said. I looked at it from an unbiased eye. Truly it was difficult but when all the things said came out to be untrue I had to question then the people who were trying to discredit Islams credibility. And that is what it is about if you say this about someone prove it. You say Jesus is God then prove it according to the standard on which we descibe God as being. Give me his testimony as such. If this person is authorized to interpret Jesus's words give me Je

I was asked once before I was Muslim what makes you think a prophet would not come after Jesus. One who preaches the same thing that all the other Messenger taught the worship of One God. Jesus himself said "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one." If there was to be no other Messengers after Jesus. jesus would have said no other Prophets or Messengers are coming after me. But what did he say he said you will recognize the false one by their fruits right.

I truly would like to understand it. That is why I have spent alot of money before I was muslim buying books by "SCHOLARS" not laymen who have dedicated hours upon hours of study into the actual text itself. I took the thoughts of the most knowledgable on the subject.

If I wanted to know truly how the heart works would I watch a documentary on discovery or read a book on it or would I ask a heart surgeon I know. Which is more sensible. If I wanted to know how mountains made themselves or how baby's came into the world would you not confide in the experts. The experts say people changed it. History teaches us that it has been altered and what people thought about the first Christians in terms of their unity is actually untrue.

So teach me something if you have it. But please give me some evidecne Scott. I am very willing to listen and learn, but I need evidence in order to truly believe you or accept it. some Catholics believe the Pope is like another Christ. Well what is their evidence for that. Some people drink wine in a cup to cleanse themselves of sin. Show me where Jesus did that in order to atone himself of sin. People say only through the blood of Christ can sins be redeemed the bible says otherwise. So please my dear brother teach me what is correct and who is correct.

[Bick]

My friend, you are laboring under a delusion. Anyone can take verses from the Bible and interpret them in ways only satisfactory to him.

Practically the whole of the Bible, both OT and NT, is written with Israel in mind.

The sign given to Ahaz, that the virgin (young woman) will be with child and shall bear a son and name him Immanuel, was first of all fulfilled in the days of Ahaz (Isa. 7:14ff).

It was also fulfilled when the virgin Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit and brought forth her firstborn son, and named him Jesus. He was the Word that was with God in beginning, and was God (John 1:1-14).

In Isa. 7:15, it is speaking of the child who will have been weaned, and will be old enough to be eating curds and honey, but not hold enough to know good from evil, when the land of the two kings Ahaz dreaded, will be deserted. Nothing else should be made of this!

The birth of Jesus and his ministry is primarily to the nation of Israel. In Luke 1:32ff, the angel Gabriel specifically tells Mary that "Jesus will be great, called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David."
OT scriptures prdicted that Israel's Messiah must first suffer and then be the foremost to rise from the dead. See Acts 2:22-36; and 26: 22-23.

Believers from the time of the Apostle Paul make up the church/body of Christ. This is a special called out group, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, now one body in Christ. Paul tells us in Eph.3:4-5, that his insight into the mystery was not made known to men in other generations, but has now been revealed to the apostles and prophets in Paul's time. Also see, Eph. 3:9-10 and Col. 1:26.

SO, Again I say, the verse in Isa. 7:14 is NOT predicting the rise of Christianity or Islam.

Bick

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

If I didn't why do I have over a 1000 dollars worth of books on various sources of Christianity and four our five very different bibles which I had to pay for.

Bad judgement? Did you really want an answer for this?

christianity is what is to be defined in terms of the Christian belief through the context and meaning of what is contained in the what they beleive to be word of God. 'Through the saying of events in Jesus's live and mission on earth. True or not true.

False.

So if the word is living today where is he. Can I speak with him. Explain better what that means.

Christ is present in every Christian believer...

Are you saying Christianity is not based on what is contained in the bible.

The Church came before the Bible.... what would lead you to believe that a book compiled and written a generation after the death of Christ could define the faith better than the living Apostles he tought with his own mouth?

I do not but when someone is constantly telling me it is the absolute truth from God then I have to question that and tell them to prove it from what you have.

Don't know what you mean by this... but I am not this person telling you anything about "absolute truth"... if you'd prefer to talk with that person, go ahead... or we can continue.

You "Christians" say your book is from God and it is absolute truth and should be perfect

I don't believe the Bible is perfect... again, if you'd like to chat with those people, go ahead.... or we can continue.

I am interested in learning about Christianity but only in the one that is correct.

Ok... then decide if you'd like to learn from the Church founded by Christ some 2,000 years ago.... and learn about the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faith..... learn about the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Seriously, Scott you and a few others seem to have most of knowledge so teach me if you want me to learn.

You don't seem to want to learn... you have your mind made up.... so we'll see this is a lie.

If the church says something it should be validated by the bible and not contradict itself in other spots and validate in others. There should be a consensus amongst bibles and scholars on this is what it is saying.

That is how YOUR faith is run... why should ours have to be the same? Again: the CHURCH came before the Bible... and for that matter, WHICH Bible? Which Books should go in that Bible? Who decided what Books went in and which stayed out?

If you can't grasp the Christian faith is more than words that can be 'fact checked' in a book you will NEVER UNDERSTAND the faith of ONE BILLION+ orthodox Christians

some Catholics believe the Pope is like another Christ.

I don't.... he's just a man.... again.... DEAL WITH ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE.... ok my brother?

If you just want another chance to bash Christians, please just ignore this post...

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Bad judgement? Did you really want an answer for this?

False.

So define it then and would the majority of christians believe you and is what you are saying as far as the definition backed up with some type of evidence from the bible.

The Church came before the Bible.... what would lead you to believe that a book compiled and written a generation after the death of Christ could define the faith better than the living Apostles he tought with his own mouth?

Well this is what you guys are waving around as truth from God maybe not you but many of your brothers are. Why should believe in any of the bible since you, yourself do not believe the bible can define the faith. What is then. How do you define it if it cannot be defined by scripture. Tell me I would like to know.

Don't know what you mean by this... but I am not this person telling you anything about "absolute truth"... if you'd prefer to talk with that person, go ahead... or we can continue.

So it is not absolute truth.

I don't believe the Bible is perfect... again, if you'd like to chat with those people, go ahead.... or we can continue.

But doesn't most of the understanding of the religion come from what is in the bible.

Ok... then decide if you'd like to learn from the Church founded by Christ some 2,000 years ago.... and learn about the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faith..... learn about the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Are they the most accurate. And why do I have to choose between them. One of them is right and the other wrong. Which one is it.

You don't seem to want to learn... you have your mind made up.... so we'll see this is a lie.

If I didn't I would not have asked.

That is how YOUR faith is run... why should ours have to be the same? Again: the CHURCH came before the Bible... and for that matter, WHICH Bible? Which Books should go in that Bible? Who decided what Books went in and which stayed out?

You tell me. I want the one that is correct.

If you can't grasp the Christian faith is more than words that can be 'fact checked' in a book you will NEVER UNDERSTAND the faith of ONE BILLION+ orthodox Christians

I can see none of you are on a concensus. How can I understand your faith when no one can really explain it. Without some other Christian coming along saying no this is what it means and none of them giving any substantial evidence to prove their version. Either through the statements of Jesus or his disciples.

I don't.... he's just a man.... again.... DEAL WITH ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE.... ok my brother?

If you just want another chance to bash Christians, please just ignore this post...

Very angry I see. Dude just tell me who is right and why they are right I am not trying to argue or bash as you say just give me evidence as to who is correct in their understanding of Christ and who is more accurate in their interpretation. Please give the evidence also. Thanks.

[vandervalley]

can see none of you are on a concensus. How can I understand your faith when no one can really explain it. Without some other Christian coming along saying no this is what it means and none of them giving any substantial evidence to prove their version. Either through the statements of Jesus or his disciples.

But Sunnies, Shias and Islamic extremests have different interpretation of Islam as well. So this problem with different intrepretation of holy books is not confined to Christianity alone

[spiritually inclined]

. We never so much as passed gas in your direction but 9/11 hits and every baptist goes out to "reveal the truth" (twisted truth) that secretly lies in the Qur'an. I think its only justice that if you guys want to play scrabble with us then will do it back, besides, we dont believe in turn the other cheek.

Who's playing scrabble? This mentality is disturbing....

James