ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM: (Jesus, punishment)

[gnostic]

And Baha`u'llah was a conqueror?

Did he help the Israelites in exile? Did Baha`u'llah return them home? Or help the Jews rebuild the temple?

You are ignoring the rest of the content of the book, popeyesays.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by gnostic

And Baha`u'llah was a conqueror?

Did he help the Israelites in exile? Did Baha`u'llah return them home? Or help the Jews rebuild the temple?

You are ignoring the rest of the content of the book, popeyesays.

Baha`u'llah was a descendant of the Jewish wife of the King of Babylon in the days of Daniel. All the pre-Islamic kings of Persia were descended from that line.

The announcement of Baha`u'llah was made after the Toleration Edict of the Sultan of Turkey allowed the Jews to return.

The Temple was rebuilt as the Temple of Man in the person of Baha`u'llah. Most of the prophesies of Isaiah and Micah detail that fulfillment.

If you don't believe it, that's fine. Its your right to deny or doubt it. But I can detail the fulfillments for the purpose of discussion if you like.

Regards,
Scott

[hanif]

Selamun Aleykum.islam Is Complete And True Form Of Christianity.
We Worship To Same God.allah Means The God.
I Believe Jesus As A Prophet And Respect To Hİm.

[hanif]

ı dont believe bahaullah.ı believe moses jesus and muhammed and all prophets mentioned in kuran.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by hanif

ı dont believe bahaullah.ı believe moses jesus and muhammed and all prophets mentioned in kuran.

Welcome to the Forum,

Have you gone to the intro section and introduced yourself to the group? If not, it would be helpful to us to help to get to know you and you might get a chance to get to know some of us.

Here you will find Jews and Zoroastrians (who are also people of the Book, as I might remind you), you will find Buddhists and Hindus, Taoists and Pagans, theists and atheists, agnostics and gnostics, Muslims, Sikhs, Baha`i's and members of much newer religious movements. We all try to get along, while sometimes heartily disagreeing with one another.

I have had many dialogues with Muslims that have been very productive and constructive and dialogues that have not been constructive at all. Its no surprise to me that Muslims tend to not accept Baha`u'llah or the Bab. and we can certainly discuss that on the debate or comparative religion forums. I have been Baha`i for more than thirty years coming to that belief from Christianity.

As to Muslims on the board, get to know Nehustan and Jamaesi, the Truth, Judgement Day and many others and they will enrich your fellowship and understanding (whether you agree with them or not on any particular notion).

Looking forward to talking further with you on this thread and others.

Regards and Allah-u-abha,

Scott

Scott

[ashai]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"If my memory serves me correctly, Isaiah lived in the time prior and during the Jews exiled from Jerusalem in Babylon. To me, Isaiah was writing to assure that there are hope for those faithful but in exile. So Isaiah 41.2 sounds more like Cyrus, a Persian conqueror "from the east". "

This in particular is not a prophesy of Jesus, but rather Baha`u'llah who was born in the region of Nur and was in fact a descendant of Cyrus.

Regards,
Scott

Ushta Scott

OH NO ! NOT AGAIN!

In my years of inter acting with Bahais and their beautiful religion i always come up to the same discordant note, namely, the outrageous claims for Bahaullah

I do not want to take the thread in a tangent, however, lll the following have been claimed to me by Bahais at some time:

Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Abraham
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Zarathushtra
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Cyrus
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Dariush
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of all Iranian kings before islam

I can safely say that, at least, 4 of these claims are totally bogus. Why is it that Bahais feel so compelled to legitimize Bahaullah ? Can't you see that you are doing more harm to your cause than good by making statements that can be proven false (and I can )

i mean from what I have read about Bahaullah he was a deep and clear thinker , aside with the obcession with the number 19 and Talismans, I find much of Bahai doctrine a fresh of breath air in comparison with the usual Abrahamic fare, but then you go and mess it up with claims that are so outrageous, Why?

Ushta te
Ashai

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by ashai

Ushta Scott

OH NO ! NOT AGAIN!

In my years of inter acting with Bahais and their beautiful religion i always come up to the same discordant note, namely, the outrageous claims for Bahaullah

I do not want to take the thread in a tangent, however, lll the following have been claimed to me by Bahais at some time:

Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Abraham
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Zarathushtra
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Cyrus
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Dariush
Bahaullah is a direct descendant of all Iranian kings before islam

I can safely say that, at least, 4 of these claims are totally bogus. Why is it that Bahais feel so compelled to legitimize Bahaullah ? Can't you see that you are doing more harm to your cause than good by making statements that can be proven false (and I can )

i mean from what I have read about Bahaullah he was a deep and clear thinker , aside with the obcession with the number 19 and Talismans, I find much of Bahai doctrine a fresh of breath air in comparison with the usual Abrahamic fare, but then you go and mess it up with claims that are so outrageous, Why?

Ushta te
Ashai

He's a descendant through Katurah of Abraham.
I didn't mention Zoroaster, though I have seen it contended that Baha`u'llah is a descendant but I do not know the geneology or what proof is offered.
Before the Jews were released to return to Israel, one of the brides of the king was Jewish, of the House of David, though Jewish lineages are not matriarchal.

By the time that Baha`u'llah was born in 1817CE, given the vagaries of lineages, probably ninety percent of the people of Persia could trace SOME lineage to the royal house of the Sassanids. After all, how many great grandparents and earlier could Baha`u'llah have had in roughly three thousand years - that about 6,000 g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grand parents. What are the chances ONE of them was not of the Sassanid House, given that the father of Baha`u'llah (Mirza Buzurg was a foreign minister under Muhammad Shah?

Regards,
Scott

[ashai]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

He's a descendant through Katurah of Abraham.
I didn't mention Zoroaster, though I have seen it contended that Baha`u'llah is a descendant but I do not know the geneology or what proof is offered.
Before the Jews were released to return to Israel, one of the brides of the king was Jewish, of the House of David, though Jewish lineages are not matriarchal.

By the time that Baha`u'llah was born in 1817CE, given the vagaries of lineages, probably ninety percent of the people of Persia could trace SOME lineage to the royal house of the Sassanids. After all, how many great grandparents and earlier could Baha`u'llah have had in roughly three thousand years - that about 6,000 g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grand parents. What are the chances ONE of them was not of the Sassanid House, given that the father of Baha`u'llah (Mirza Buzurg was a foreign minister under Muhammad Shah?

Regards,
Scott

Ushta Scott

There is no supporting egvidence for the claim that Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Abraham through Katurah or any one else! Even the very existence of a particular person that fathered the Jewish nation is mythical. The 'evidence' given to me over and over about Bahaullah's direct descent from Zarathushtra, is the bogus Sassanian claim that Zarathushtra was part of the nobility and that his 'line' ascended the throne before Cyrus ( I.E. During the mythical Kayanian dynasty)

But the claim has been proved totally bogus, a propaganda effort by the Sassanians to legitimize themselves as ruling house andy to empower them in their efforts to establish a Theocracy, the very first ever, in Persia


The Sassanians were not a legitimate royal house, that is the point. To start out with they were not even originally Persian, but Eastern Iranians who moved to Persia. They themselves claimed descent from the house of Sassan of which there is no record in Persia. They, in fact, were descendants of Athravan families who married Maguses. However they never went into the priesthood and as was , and is, often the case they went into the professions some into the Army others became money lenders.

To say that many people had Sassanian blood in Presia in the 19th Century is a meaningless statement, if you mean Sassanian DNA you are definitely wrong and this can easily be proven by DNA tests.

But even then Zarathushtra was not of a priest line his family has been proven to have been cattle and horse breeders and thus outside the classes that could have been accepted into the nobility, Kshatriyas, (warriors) or Athravan/Magus, priests one from Eastern Iran and of course the Magus from Western Iran Besides the operative words are direct descendant as in related, family.

As to Dariush and Cyrus, Bahaullah could only had been the descendant of one of the two because Dariush was not related to Cyrus, he ascended the throne because all of Cyrus descendants were dead and the 7 tribes of the Persian confederation elected him as Sha'n' sha ( King of Kings)

That is why there were several rebellions when he assumed power, for many thought he was an impostor. So Dariush came up with the idea that he was Cyrus'es far removed cousin . Actually Dariush was almost certainly Medan and not Persian

One last point it was like 2100 years not 3000 between the start of the Sassanians and Bahaullah's birth. At the time of the Sassanian 's zenith, there were some 15 million people under thir rule by the time of Bahaullah there were probably no more than 11 to 12 million, millions died during the after math of rhe arab invasion and the later Mongolian and Turkish invasions The Sassanina House was highly persecuted so that its members, both men and women, were killed in droves, wiping them out; others followed one of Yazdegird's son, Behram, into exile in China

Ushta Te
Ashai

[ashai]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

He's a descendant through Katurah of Abraham.
I didn't mention Zoroaster, though I have seen it contended that Baha`u'llah is a descendant but I do not know the geneology or what proof is offered.
Before the Jews were released to return to Israel, one of the brides of the king was Jewish, of the House of David, though Jewish lineages are not matriarchal.

By the time that Baha`u'llah was born in 1817CE, given the vagaries of lineages, probably ninety percent of the people of Persia could trace SOME lineage to the royal house of the Sassanids. After all, how many great grandparents and earlier could Baha`u'llah have had in roughly three thousand years - that about 6,000 g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grand parents. What are the chances ONE of them was not of the Sassanid House, given that the father of Baha`u'llah (Mirza Buzurg was a foreign minister under Muhammad Shah?

Regards,
Scott

Ushta Scott

There is no supporting evidence for the claim that Bahaullah is a direct descendant of Abraham through Katurah or any one else! Even the very existence of a particular person that fathered the Jewish nation is mythical.

The 'evidence' given to me, over and over, about Bahaullah's direct descent from Zarathushtra, is the bogus Sassanian claim that Zarathushtra was part of the nobility and that his 'line' ascended the throne before Cyrus ( I.E. During the mythical Kayanian dynasty)

But the claim has been proved totally bogus, a propaganda effort by the Sassanians to legitimize themselves as ruling house and to empower them in their efforts to establish a Theocracy, the very first ever, in Persia


The Sassanians were not a legitimate royal house, that is the point. To start out with they were not even, originally, Persian, but Eastern Iranians who moved to Persia. They themselves claimed descent from the house of Sassan of which there is no record in Persia. They, in fact, were descendants of Athravan families who married Maguses. However they never went into the priesthood and as was , and is, often the case they went into the professions some into the Army others became money lenders.

To say that many people had Sassanian blood in Persia in the 19th Century is a meaningless statement, if you mean Sassanian DNA you are definitely wrong and this can easily be proven by DNA tests.

But even then Zarathushtra was not of a priest line his family has been proven to have been cattle and horse breeders and thus outside the classes that could have been accepted into the nobility, Kshatriyas, (warriors) or Athravan/Magus, priests one from Eastern Iran and of course the Magus from Western Iran. Besides, the operative words are direct descendant as in related, family.

As to Dariush and Cyrus, Bahaullah could only had been the descendant of one of the two because Dariush was not related to Cyrus, he ascended the throne because all of Cyrus descendants were dead and the 7 tribes of the Persian confederation elected him as Sha'n' sha ( King of Kings)

That is why there were several rebellions when he assumed power, for many thought he was an impostor. So Dariush came up with the idea that he was Cyrus's far removed cousin . Actually Dariush was almost certainly Medan and not Persian

One last point it was like 2100 years not 3000 between the start of the Sassanians and Bahaullah's birth. At the time of the Sassanian 's zenith, there were some 15 million people under their rule by the time of Bahaullah there were probably no more than 11 to 12 million, millions died during the after math of the Arab invasion and the later Mongolian and Turkish invasions The Sassanina House was highly persecuted so that its members, both men and women, were killed in droves, basically wiping them out; what was left followed one of Yazdegird's son, Behram, into exile in China

Ushta Te
Ashai