ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM: (Jesus, punishment)

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Flappycat

I didn't say anything was a crime. There's just no nice way to tell people that their supreme being doesn't exist. There's no way for it to sound appealing. Worse, atheists don't have any organizational support or any real motivation to convert people to atheism. It's just not something you get hyped up about. In the end, atheism is just too boring to really interest anybody, in and of itself. . . . <SNIP>

I have no respect for the behavior under any name. Is this what Islam is? Is this what Christianity is?

Hey, everybody has challenges in life. Can you prove a person of faith wrong? No. You can only allege it. Can God's existence be PROVEN empirically? No, it cannot. No use whining about either proposition, itis just life as we live it while we breathe.

Regards,
Scott

[Flappycat]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Hey, everybody has challenges in life. Can you prove a person of faith wrong? No. You can only allege it. Can God's existence be PROVEN empirically? No, it cannot. No use whining about either proposition, itis just life as we live it while we breathe.

Well, the conversation had partly turned into a contest over which faith is more difficult, so I took a moment to explain why not having one is arguably more difficult in some places, at least in the long term. My main point, however, was unrelated to this. In fact, the excision you made in quoting my post completely contorts the meaning of the last line in the quotation, which is an example of the behavior that I see in Christians, Muslims, and people of related religions on a regular basis. They can't seem to grasp the idea of reading something in context, for what it was meant to mean. They don't want meaning; they want justification. They don't want to know what the scriptures say; they just want it to say what they think it should say. Contorting words from an old book to agree with your dogma is not something that rings to me as legitimacy. If this sort of behavior is the rule for Christians and Muslims alike, I think that I can safely say that there is not a grain of truth or goodness in either religion. Do I perceive them incorrectly? If I am, just tell me so.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Flappycat

Well, the conversation had partly turned into a contest over which faith is more difficult, so I took a moment to explain why not having one is arguably more difficult in some places, at least in the long term. My main point, however, was unrelated to this. In fact, the excision you made in quoting my post completely contorts the meaning of the last line in the quotation, which is an example of the behavior that I see in Christians, Muslims, and people of related religions on a regular basis. They can't seem to grasp the idea of reading something in context, for what it was meant to mean. They don't want meaning; they want justification. They don't want to know what the scriptures say; they just want it to say what they think it should say. Contorting words from an old book to agree with your dogma is not something that rings to me as legitimacy. If this sort of behavior is the rule for Christians and Muslims alike, I think that I can safely say that there is not a grain of truth or goodness in either religion. Do I perceive them incorrectly? If I am, just tell me so.

Okay, you are perceiving them incorrectly.

I am a Baha`i. I recognize that there are truths within the Bible and the Qur'an, but there "higher criticism" is difficult because of the distance between the events, the record and the canonization of the record.

I can look at the books of my faith and know that the oldest date to about 160 years ago, and in most instances the original documents are still extant.

Regards,
Scott

[gnostic]

The problem I had with Muslims at islam.com forums, was that they often quoted small snippets of Old Testament or New Testament passages without considering the whole message, and then say it is prophecy of Muhammad.

I take any small verse from the Qur'an, and do exactly the same thing, mashing the original context and say these verses are prophecies of not Muahammad, but of Galileo, Einstien or JFK.

I am neither Christian nor Jew (I am agnostic, btw), but even I find what Muslims doing with the Bible as nothing more than apparent attempt of propaganda, to promote Muhammad. Their interpretations/arguments are often weak, and I am seeing this same thing here too.

I see the Christians do the same things too with the Old Testament.

I'd prefer to read the whole chapter, instead of just a tiny portion of it. If you don't read the whole text in the chapter, then you risk changing the meaning of it, to suit your agenda, and that to me is no better than lying.

[James the Persian]

Never saw this before but I'll answer now.

Originally Posted by Muhhamad Abdul Salam

Is it now? Lets see, how many times have you fasted.

Too many times to count. Every Wednesday and Friday, every Saturday evening to taking the Eucharist on Sunday. Every Great Lent (about 50 days prior to Pascha) every Nativity Lent (40 days prior to the feast of the Nativity), every Apostles' fast, every fast in preparation for the Dormition. Overall, more than half of the days of every year since my conversion about 5 years ago. Don't assume that all Christians follow the same practices as Protestants do.

Have you ever been physically assaulted because of your faith.

No, but that's a reflection on society's attitude to my faith, not the faith itself. There are plenty of Orthodox Christians who have been martyrs and confessors for the faith over the last 2000 years and even recently in, for example, eastern Europe. I just thank God that I have been spared that.

How many times do you worship per day?

Define worship. I pray every day on waking before meals and before bed (ideally at least, I don't say I never miss a prayer, but I try my best.

Have you ever prostrated or gotten on the ground while praying in public?

Yes. Prostrations both full (lying prostrate) and partial (crossing yourself and touching the ground) are common in Orthodox worship.

Are you willing to prohibit yourself from alcohol, cigarettes, pork, gambling, etc.

Cigarettes and gambling, yes. Alcohol consumed in moderation is part of our faith given the presence of wine in the Eucharist and the prohibition on pork is not binding on Christians. However, during our frequent fasts I give up a lot more than just these: meat, fish, dairy products, alcohol and oil and only eat one small meal in the evening.

I used to be a christian and no offense but its a pretty plush life. Go to worship on Sundays, youre the majority faith, there arent any restrictions, you can even pray to a cross (idolatry). Yep, ist a huge sacrifice.

But you weren't Orthodox were you? You appear to be assuming that all Christians follow the same practices as whatever group you were formerly a member of. We don't. We likewise are certainly not the majority faith in any western country. We also don't pray to a cross or an icon so your charge of idolatry falls flat. We do use them in worship but praying to anyone or anything but God is completely forbidden in my faith. Maybe you should endeavour to learn something about another's faith before jumping in and mocking?

James

[Esther]

I have been told that Muslims have a tender devotion to the Virgin Mary...and that there are more references to her in your holy book than in our Bible. If that is so, then please consider her last words in our Bible about her son, Jesus..."Do whatever he tells you." What he told us to do is to love God above all other things and to love our neighbors as he loved us...enough to die for us as unfair as that was. You are right when you say that on the outside, it can look like Christians have a plush life. Muslims do a wonderful thing when they praise God daily but how can you know what my prayer life is like just because it is private? You would also be correct to say that many Christians have difficulty living up to this teaching! That doesn't make the teaching wrong however...it makes us human, and obviously not as perfect as God. I have also heard it said that Muslims consider Jesus to be just one of the prophets. If this is true, then please just read what else he said and did in the book of Matthew, Mark, or Luke in our Bible. I have heard it said that Muslims think that it is blasphemous to say that Jesus was the son of God - that this proves we have many Gods...but this is not accurate. In the Hebrew Torah, in the very first book, God is quoted. He says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." How can He say "us" and "our"? The same way that you can say it about yourself. Are you not one man if I look at you? And are you not also a father, a son, a husband and are you not perceived differently to your children, your parents, and your spouse? Each has a slightly different picture of you, yet you are one man. These are just some thoughts...May God bless you on your journey to Him!

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by AbduRahman (Kai)

From this following passage in New Testament (Matt.4:13-17), that many will try to use to deny my interpretations, can be clearly seen that writer has interpretated himself that Jesus so fulfilled another prophecy, and twisted prophecy by fitting it into frames of this:

13. and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali.

14. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
15. "THE LAND OF ZEBULUN AND THE LAND OF NAPHTALI,
BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, BEYOND THE JORDAN, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES--
16. "THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT,
AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH,
UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED."

17. From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

First of all, these are not words of Jesus but later added prophecy by Isaiah fitted into visit of Jesus on area fitting into prophecy (in prophecy this border area of Israel is just describing areas beyond borders, lands of Arabs, not just lands of Zebulun/Naphtali exclusively, in fact Jesus were only near these areas for a LITTLE TIME).

In Isaiah prophecy were in future-form, here in past-form. According to Isaiah lands of Zebulun/Naphtali were "treated with contempt", and only LATER they will be given PERMANENT light (Jesus spend there only little time, Christianity little longer, but Islam is still there), so that whole land will come from dark into shining (describing deserts, which it came permanently only by Islam).

So would it not have to mean that these people on these lands did not accept Jesus and his message and so were kept in darkness, or that they started worshipping prophet as a god when they at least lost rest from their glory and were in contempt. In this case Islam was one to come to clean and purify that all.


Jesus himself did not require faith for “salvation through death on cross” even in Bible, it is invention of others (mainly Paul’s), although he recognized that those events have to come pass (even as fake crucifixion) because of its importance for world and in foreshadowing Islam to bring salvation closer to (otherwise) pagans who were not mentioned to receive Islam (until some time limit on some amount, which is going on now). Jesus even stated that he will be those three days like Jonah on stomach of whale, and Jonah was ALIVE inside whale.

Finally!!! a Muslim from Finland has accomplished in one internet forum post what countless scholars, utilizing higher criticism and expounding their findings in hundreds of books have heretofore not been able to do: Make outlandish statements about Isaiah and Matthew that have no basis in reality, while at the same time losing credibility among his peers.

[shema]

Originally Posted by Muhhamad Abdul Salam

Is it now? Lets see, how many times have you fasted. Have you ever been physically assaulted because of your faith. How many times do you worship per day? Have you ever prostrated or gotten on the ground while praying in public? Are you willing to prohibit yourself from alcohol, cigarettes, pork, gambling, etc. I used to be a christian and no offense but its a pretty plush life. Go to worship on Sundays, youre the majority faith, there arent any restrictions, you can even pray to a cross (idolatry). Yep, ist a huge sacrifice.

A TRUE CHRISTIAN WANTS TO DO ALL OF THESE THINGS. A TRUE CHRISTIAN ONLY WANTS WHAT GOD WANTS. SO THOSE FEW SACRIFICES ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE SACRIFICE THAT HE MADE FOR US.

[ashai]

Ushta

Err How should I say this ... oh well ! The so-called prophecy about the Virgin birth is not so.. Christians, apparently Muslims too, use a text from the Septuagint which has a word that can be translated as virgin. However the Septuagint was a translation into Greek. In the original Hebrew there is different word that means maiden/young woman and not virgin. Moreover Isaiah was talking specifically of a Jewish king.

Any Jew out there or any reasonably informed Bible student will know that this 'prophecy' is mere ledgerdemain and wishful thinking

Ushta All
Ashai