ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM: (Jesus, punishment)

[vandervalley]

i heard mouhamed couldnt read so surely some of his followers could have written something down that was said by muhamed

Sorry; change the sentence to

i heard mouhamed couldnt read so surely some of his followers could have written something down that WASN't said by muhamed

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by vandervalley

So how do u know koran was not changed/edit by others in the course of islamic history?

We have the evidence in the hadith. The Prophet pbuh sat alot of his companions down and told them what the verses were and what the meaning is. Among them was Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Masaud, Ali ibn Abu Talib just to name a few. There were many hafiz of the Quran.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by vandervalley

Sorry; change the sentence to

i heard mouhamed couldnt read so surely some of his followers could have written something down that WASN't said by muhamed

you have to remember who you are talking about when you say that. These followers of Muhammed were the most devoted people of their time. They loved the Messenger more then their own mother, fathers, children, and spouses. They protected him at all costs and would gladly to give their own lives as opposed to letting a thorn prick and harm Muhammed. They took his words seriously. These are words they were killed for, they were tortured in ways many of us cannot believe, and they never gave it up. they had wars with their fathers, brothers, uncle, and kinsman to the point where many of them may have had to kill their own father or son or brother. These are men who feared Allah as if Allah was in front of them every second. They feared the punishment of Allah so much that the thought of the punishment of Hellfire would cause them all to cry in fear and grief. People who fear and love God this much do not have the capacity within their heart to betray the trust of Muhammed. As I said one of the companions Jabir I believe traveled over 2000 miles a 4 month trip on camel just to get one hadith or saying of the Messenger.

And they all knew the hadith that the Messenger said whoever lies on me and says something I did not say his seat is waiting for him in the hellfire.

These are the most God fearing people in their time and they loved the Messenger like no other group of people loved their leader. It is quite remarkable. They left their homes, wealth, and family to flee persecution and torture and fought their own tribes all for this man and people think they would lie on him.

There are many stories of the trial and tribulations and attributes of the Sahaba (Companions) of the Messenger (pbuh). I will post it soon insha Allah.

I hope this helps.

[natey]

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

All saying something different and that is the issue. What did he say he could not have said all of those things.

They all said that He gave up His spirit as His last breath. Some of them don't mention the part where He said why do you forsake me, how does that make it bad? Because they left out a sentence and some put it in that means that it's wrong.

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

Generally "corroborating" evidence is from those who actually witnessed the event which none of them did.

It doesn't have to be a primary source to be corroborating.

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

Ok if I give you that one what about who saw what at the grave one person witnessed an earthquake when no one else did. I think the other people who were there would have noticed the groung shaking.

"...that one what about who saw what at the grave one person witnessed an earthquake when no one else did..." <--- Sorry but I cannot understand that at all. I'm pretty sure they all felt the earthquake.

[natey]

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

We have the evidence in the hadith. The Prophet pbuh sat alot of his companions down and told them what the verses were and what the meaning is. Among them was Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Masaud, Ali ibn Abu Talib just to name a few. There were many hafiz of the Quran.

Please if your going to explain something then explain what the word means to.

There is no evidence that the Bible was "corrupted" at all. Every Muslim I've ever talked to has said that and they've never been able to provide evidence for it. I pull out a Bible verse and they say oh the Bible is corrupted. However I could just as easily say that the Koran is corrupted with no supporting evidence.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by natey

They all said that He gave up His spirit as His last breath. Some of them don't mention the part where He said why do you forsake me, how does that make it bad? Because they left out a sentence and some put it in that means that it's wrong.

Yes because this is supposed to be a testimony of absolute truth yet they cannot agree on it. Besides the fact that THEY DID NOT WITNESS THE EVENT.

It doesn't have to be a primary source to be corroborating.

Secondary witnessess are not accepted without the testimony of the original in court because they have no way of verifying if it was really said or not.

"...that one what about who saw what at the grave one person witnessed an earthquake when no one else did..." <--- Sorry but I cannot understand that at all. I'm pretty sure they all felt the earthquake.

Yet they failed to mention it. I think an earthquake is quite significant. If you ask anyone in san Fransciso where and what they were doing when the big one hit in the earlies 90's I am almost certain they know exactly. Just like everyone knows what they were doing when the twin towers struck.

Besides why is it so difficult for Christians to believe that there was not going to be a messenger to come after Jesus?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by natey

Please if your going to explain something then explain what the word means to.

Which word? Hafiz? Man, you really do not know that much. A Hafiz is one who has memorized the entire Quran by heart from beginning to end. there are many very young children who have done this.

There is no evidence that the Bible was "corrupted" at all.

Read Bart Ehrman the Orthodox Corruption of scripture or a book by Bruce Metzger called the text of the Nt: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration 4th edition All the evidence is there. YOu have to do some research. If you look at the oldest scriptures meaning you are special enough for the vatican to allow you to view the manuscripts. If you look at the oldest transmitter of the text of Luke which is Marcion and then you get the same text by Tertullian who came about 40 years later. Verses have been changed and removed and altered. If you look at the Codex Sinaticus which is the oldest most complete version of the NT. And you look at the older manuscripts their is alteration and changes in the verses. It is clear brother. Classical christian scholars all agree that the text has been altered and changed and then they did not sign their names. I mean the KJV the one authorized by King James has been changed by someone not authorized by the King look her The AV Bible, King James Version, AV 1611

Now since it has been changed since the original Christian have taken the unauthorized version of the bible and changed it to suit their particular beliefs Read a book called the New Age Bible Version by Gail Riplinger. she will show you how the books have all been changed currently how the different bibles have different verses some addedd and taken out words changed verses omitted. This is a huge problem for the preservation of YOUR TEXT. If you as Christian cannot even decide on what the bible is how do you expect us as muslims to accept it. The Catholics version is different from the Protestants. The JW and Mormons are different as well. I could go on and they all are claiming to be Christian.

Every Muslim I've ever talked to has said that and they've never been able to provide evidence for it. I pull out a Bible verse and they say oh the Bible is corrupted. However I could just as easily say that the Koran is corrupted with no supporting evidence.

You are talking to a muslim who has the evidence and has seen it from individuals who have viewed the text themselves. I mean Bart Ehrman said they would not allow him to take pictures or video of the manuscripts and he was only allowed to view one at a time for 30 minute intervals. He had to schedule time slots to view the manuscripts and they only gave him a pencil and piece of paper. There are over 250,000 different ones and no two are exactly the same. Why is that, if they are all authentic?

[vandervalley]

If you as Christian cannot even decide on what the bible is how do you expect us as muslims to accept it. The Catholics version is different from the Protestants. The JW and Mormons are different as well. I could go on and they all are claiming to be Christian.

If u said that then is it fair to say that Shias and Sunnies can't decide what is the real Islam? Both groups claim themselves to be Muslims but the difference in believe is so great that fights break out often between the two groups

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by vandervalley

If u said that then is it fair to say that Shias and Sunnies can't decide what is the real Islam? Both groups claim themselves to be Muslims but the difference in believe is so great that fights break out often between the two groups

Remember I am talking about the different versions of the bible. We only have one Quran and it is the same all over the planet. There issue is a little deeper than ours for you can go and see if there understanding is correct by going to the Quran and the authentic sayings of the Prophet on the subject matter discussed.

We have the evidence to conflict any sort of non-sense the deviant sects of Islam come with. Nation of Islam believes they are muslim and Elijah Muhammed is the last prophet. Now the Quran says Muhammed is the seal of Prophethood and we have the testimony of the Messenger himself to back it up.

the only difference between us is the interpretation of the religion we still have only one Quran where as the Christians cannot even agree on what the bible is.(I have excellent sources on this if you want them) and we are supposed to interpret it the way the Prophet pbuh interpreted it. Like some shia believe that this verse in Surah Baqarah about the slaughtering of a cow refers to his beloved wife A'ishah as being the cow. Come on is that realistic to say. The shia say that Abu Bakr and Umar stole the Khilafah from Ali when the Prophet clearly gave Abu Bakr the authority to lead and then Omar not to mention the Quran states that they were righteous and the best of mankind so how can they say these things about them when the Quran praises them. And some of the more extreme shia even say that Ali should have been the prophet and not Muhammed. And some even worship Ali and make him equal to God very similar to the way Christian have done Jesus. So that is the difference. We have the Quran only one Quran. And we interpret our religion according to the teachings and saying of the Prophet. When people go outside of that, that is where the problem lies. Some shia believe suicide bombings is permissible when we have hadith that say otherwise. some muslims believe killing innocent civilians is permissible when this is clearly not the case. The reason for the division is because of personalized interpretation. You see in Islam it is easy to sift through the B.S. You just have to get the knowledge and know where to find the evidence for the answer is there you just have to know where to look.

but the difference is in Islam we have the original source and the original Messenger to tell us what it means. This is not the case in Christianity. They do not have the original text nor is the interpretation of the religion taken from the context of what Jesus says or his companions (for they were with him and there interpretation should be more valid then those who neve met him e.g. Paul, Mark, Luke, Matthew). So you see this is there problem and it is similar to ours however we have the original text and comments of the Messenger to explain it.

If you were to get the Tafsir of the Quran, the most famous is by Ibn Kathir it will give you the meaning of each verse according to the statements of the Prophets and his companions. It will also give you the order of when the verses where revealed and who it was specifically addressing. And it also tells you the circumstances of events that may have led to the revelation. there are many reasons for revelation. Like for example the first ayah about Jihad revealed was in Surah baqarah verse 190 if you read it. It says And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress the limits. So you would have to ask what are the limits. Well we have the hadith and other ayat saying to not fight those who do not fight you, cannot fight women and children, the slave, cannot cut down trees or burn down buildings. Many limits were given but people for whatever reason do not learn the religion and interpret it according to their understanding instead of doing it how the Prophet did it.

[Scott1]