ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM: (Jesus, punishment)

[natey]

Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed

The statements are not the same in terms of testimony what where his last words. Father unto they hands I commend my spirt. It is finished or Eli Eli etc. What was it. If this were a court of law the testimony would be thrown out for someone is obviously lying.

If you would have payed attention, his last words were all in bold. He said "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" before that. Every one of those verses says that his last breath was commending his spirit to God.

That's what is called "corroborating" evidence. When 4 people say the same thing and have the same time of day it's a lot more trustworthy than one person saying something.

You are digging so hard for something that you're saying that there is a confliction because they don't have the same writing word for word. But they all have the same meaning.

[YmirGF]

One could simply counter MM that the original writers of the bible were giving second/third & forth hand accounts. They perhaps felt that although unreliable, those accounts were still worthy of note. Do you really think that the folks that compiled the Bible were not aware of this? Frankly, anyone who was competent enough to compile the texts and render them into a cohesive format would have to be an idiot to miss the descrepancies. In my view, it was done intentionally to bolster the overall message which I will leave to Christians to explain. (See Natey's response above, who explains exactly the same thing in a very clear way.)

Oh, and as to the Hadiths. Be honest, if you were presented with a tale by people who had a vested interest in you believing their tale. would you not be suspicious if all their accounts agreed perfectly? Maybe I am just skeptical or cynical, but I would be instantly thinking fabrication or white-wash - not truth. I would immediately assume they were lying and that their stories were intended to conceal rather and expose.

Have you, by chance, heard the expression, "It's all too pat?"

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by natey

Matthew's Account
45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 47And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, "This man is calling Elijah." 48And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Mark's Account

33And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 35And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "Behold, he is calling Elijah." 36And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down." 37And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. 38And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!"

Luke's Account

44It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. 47Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent!" 48And all the crowds that had assembled for this spectacle, when they saw what had taken place, returned home beating their breasts. 49And all his acquaintances and the women who had followed him from Galilee stood at a distance watching these things.

John's Account

28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), "I thirst." 29A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

In every one of these accounts the last thing He does is gives up His spirit.

Couldnt have done it better myself, frubals to you for 'doing my work'

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by natey

If you would have payed attention, his last words were all in bold. He said "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" before that. Every one of those verses says that his last breath was commending his spirit to God.

All saying something different and that is the issue. What did he say he could not have said all of those things.

That's what is called "corroborating" evidence. When 4 people say the same thing and have the same time of day it's a lot more trustworthy than one person saying something.

Generally "corroborating" evidence is from those who actually witnessed the event which none of them did.

You are digging so hard for something that you're saying that there is a confliction because they don't have the same writing word for word. But they all have the same meaning.

Ok if I give you that one what about who saw what at the grave one person witnessed an earthquake when no one else did. I think the other people who were there would have noticed the groung shaking.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

One could simply counter MM that the original writers of the bible were giving second/third & forth hand accounts.

I know that already that is part of the problem with the text.

They perhaps felt that although unreliable, those accounts were still worthy of note. Do you really think that the folks that compiled the Bible were not aware of this?

NO, i think they knew exactly what they were doing.

Frankly, anyone who was competent enough to compile the texts and render them into a cohesive format would have to be an idiot to miss the descrepancies.

I agree but be careful you are talking about the majority of christians.

In my view, it was done intentionally to bolster the overall message which I will leave to Christians to explain.

Don't hold your breath while waiting for an explanation.

Oh, and as to the Hadiths. Be honest, if you were presented with a tale by people who had a vested interest in you believing their tale.

But you see the companions interest was not in you believeing them but it was to tell the truth. It was to preserve the knowledge the Messenger gave them. They loved him more than their own families. One companion traveled over 2000 miles (4 month treck on camel) just to get 1 hadith. He traveled all that way just to get that one saying of the Messenger for his words were invaluable to him.

The number of people narrating it was compiled by others who used methods to verify the authenticity.

would you not be suspicious if all their accounts agreed perfectly?

Yes and no depends on the person. And what their intention is. If it is to preserve it for the use of their people then yes. If it is to make you look better than others or some other selfish reason then no. The companions did not care what others think they only cared what Allah thinks about them.

Maybe I am just skeptical or cynical, but I would be instantly thinking fabrication or white-wash - not truth. I would immediately assume they were lying and that their stories were intended to conceal rather and expose.

conceal what. The life of the Messenger. Remember what the hadiths are it is not Quran.

Have you, by chance, heard the expression, "It's all too pat?"

No.

[Snowbear]

Mujahid - why are you attacking the very Book being used in an attempt to validate your prophet?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

Mujahid - why are you attacking the very Book being used in an attempt to validate your prophet?

As I have said many times we as muslims do not really need the Bible to validate anything for us in terms of Muhammed's Prophethood. It is just something that is mentioned in the Quran that his description and signs are in the Scriptures but since we do not have the originals without alteration it may prove a difficult task. But since Christians do not believe in the Quran why would they believe there are things about Muhammed in it.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

Mujahid - why are you attacking the very Book being used in an attempt to validate your prophet?

As I have said many times we as muslims do not really need the Bible to validate anything for us in terms of Muhammed's Prophethood. It is just something that is mentioned in the Quran that his description and signs are in the Scriptures but since we do not have the originals without alteration it may prove a difficult task. But since Christians do not believe in the Quran why would they believe there are things about Muhammed in it.

[vandervalley]

So how do u know koran was not changed/edit by others in the course of islamic history?

[vandervalley]

i heard mouhamed couldnt read so surely some of his followers could have written something down that was said by muhamed