My latest struggle (Jesus, punishment, Earth, HaShem, Kingdom)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Faith_is_an_assurance

"Natural distasters" are just that natural disasters. God has nothing to do with it. You can blame everything that is evil, including Hurricanes and earthquakes, on the Devil.... There is a simple scientific explanation to these things. We can't blame everything that is bad in this world on God. Satan is the one we should blame.

Man, I hate it when I have to disagree with someone of my own faith. (As y'all have probably noticed, we Mormons tend to stick together. )

Faith, God created our universe and the laws that govern it. Satan had absolutely nothing to do with it. Yes, natural disasters are just that -- natural. They are not the work of the Adversary. God has never given him that kind of power, and while he (Satan) undoubtedly delights in the misery such disasters bring into the world, it is totally unreasonable to blame him for their occurance. If you could, I'd be blaming Satan for the six month period ahead of us. As far as I'm concerned, winter in Utah is one big natural disaster!

Originally Posted by EEWRED

Lately I have been struggling with the existence of God. I have been thinking a lot about the nature of God, relative to natural disasters and His place in letting those things happen. While I am not totally convinced that there is no God, I also not, at this time, totally convinced of his existence either.

And now, in answer to EEWRED's concerns...

I know it's hard to buy into the idea that a loving God would allow evil, and particularly evil that affects hundreds of thousands of people at a time. And I know that "God's ways are not our ways" seems like such a trite way of trying to resolve this dilemma. But that's the only way I personally can resolve it. I've asked myself the same questions you have and there isn't a answer that makes complete sense to us.

I believe that God's plan for His children is so much more wonderful than we can possibly imagine. But that plan requires us to walk in faith, to experience the trials of life without losing that faith. He has also given us our free agency. He isn't going to force any of us to use it righteously. We are free to hurt our fellow human beings and to damage our environment. And when we do, we face the consequences of our actions. And there are times when nobody's responsible. Bad things happen to good people. That's how it is.

Here's one thought that might help: We are always aware of when tragedy strikes thousands of people at once (i.e. Katrina). The news media informs us when madmen kill innocent school children or when mothers toss their own children into the San Francisco Bay. God didn't make these things happen, but He did allow them to happen. Does that make Him evil, as drekmed suggested? Stop and consider the alternative. We wonder if God is evil when a hurricane or tsunami takes thousands of lives. Why would God permit such a thing? How many lives do you believe God should be permitted to take in one fell swoop? If a thousand is too many, would we "forgive" Him for taking just a hundred? Still too many? Maybe we could allow Him to take three or four at a time and still be a "good" God. And what about how we die and how old we should be when this happens? What would God have to do to satisfy us in that regard? Should He let us die only when we are old and sick or should He not allow us to get old and sick? Either way, He loses. Who wants to die in the prime of his life? But is this a better alternative than dying slowly and painfully at age 95?

We want everything to be pleasant all of the time. But the problem is, we can't possibly grow and mature if we are not expected to endure difficult times, and maybe even tragedy. Take a month-old baby to the doctor for an immunization. That baby screams in pain when the needle goes in. If he were two years old, he might try to reason it out. If Mom loves me, why would she do this to me? That's what you're asking about God. You are assuming that if God really loved us, He wouldn't allow pain and misfortune to come into our lives. Maybe we just don't understand His reasons any more than a month-old baby understand's his mother's reasons for putting him through pain.

Don't give up on God. He's there and He loves you.

[BUDDY]

Well, thank you all for your input, it is certainly giving me something to think about.

As to the question though, I believe that God also said (besides the Isaiah reference that Deut provided) that nothing happens that he can not control. Which leads me to believe that an omniscient, omnipresent and all powerful God, lets these things happen with his approval. Let me put it another way. You are the leader of a Marine Corps Battalion. You know that one of your Company Commanders (let's call him Beel) is a bad egg, and always causes trouble for you and everyone else. You take all of your men into battle, and you stand back and direct the action. Beel decides to take it upon himself to blow up a building that you know is full of civilians. You know this to be utterly wrong, horrible, makes no sense, will harm hundreds of innocents who did nothing to you, but, you do nothing to stop it, even though you have the power too. So, Beel does it. A lot of people get hurt. You don't respond. The rest of your Marines sit back, and do you know what they say? Beel acted on his own, it wasn't the big man up top, he had nothing to do with it. But you know, you could have told him not to or stopped him yourself since you knew about it before it happened, or warned the people inside to get, etc. Sound familiar?

As far as the old testament goes, I can at least find some sort of justification in the fact the god's direct punishment of people through natural disasters was preceded by a warning in most (maybe all) cases, and was a distinct punishment, for a distinct disobedience to him. Now days, things more horrible than what is in the Bible occur annually, with absolutely no explanation. Oh no, its the magnifying glass again. With no explanation, what is even more cruel is that those who know the God of the Bible, and are familar with His ways, are left to ponder why God did this to them? What did we do wrong to deserve this? The answer they receive......none, he was just having a bad day I guess.

It is making less and less sense to me. It hurts. Not my head, but my heart, to think that there is a chance I have wsated thirty years of time, thought, money, and energy, believing in something that may not be. And yet, I find myself feeling guilty for hitting the "Submit Reply" button before going back and making sure I capitalized my g's. Such is the nature of him though.....he demands unquestioned love from you, but don't you dare forget to capitalize his name, or he will squash you like a bug. Or, maybe he'll do that anyway.

[AtheistAJ]

Originally Posted by EEWRED

So, if only those who would allow this to happen are what we consider evil, and God made all mankind in his image, then the nature of God must be both evil and good. If that is true, then how can a God who is both good and evil, demand only good from his followers? It is a hypocracy by my estimation, and makes no sense, but I can not shake this line of reasoning. Someone please help.

Looks like that certain god has the devil's work cut out for him. I appreciate your freethinking EEWRED, you can change the world, gods and devils can't.

Useful info - research shows 4% more people in UK feel like that since 1980. That would make the number of churchgoers in the country 7%, and if it keeps up at this rate in 40 years, people will stop attending church in UK completely, thus pretty much rendering the aristocratic monarchy obsolete. That according to Christian research.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by EEWRED

It is making less and less sense to me. It hurts. Not my head, but my heart, to think that there is a chance I have wsated thirty years of time, thought, money, and energy, believing in something that may not be.

If Christianity has made you what you are today, has strengthened your relationships with your loved ones, has given you some values that have made you a better person, I can't imagine that that's thirty years wasted.

And yet, I find myself feeling guilty for hitting the "Submit Reply" button before going back and making sure I capitalized my g's. Such is the nature of him though.....he demands unquestioned love from you, but don't you dare forget to capitalize his name, or he will squash you like a bug. Or, maybe he'll do that anyway.

And maybe he'll bless you with the faith to accept His will, and will reward you for staying true to Him even when things don't make perfect sense. I wouldn't get too awfully hung up about making sure you remember to capitalize your g's. I honestly don't think He's quite that petty. Good luck, and don't toss thirty years out because of some doubts.

[robtex]

Originally Posted by EEWRED

It is making less and less sense to me. It hurts. Not my head, but my heart, to think that there is a chance I have wsated thirty years of time, thought, money, and energy, believing in something that may not be.

Eewren whatever you decide is your decision alone. The best advice I can give you is which ever way you go or lean in your search that being honest with yourself irregardless of that answer is the greatest justice you can do for you. And by contrast being dishonest with yourself irregardless of the movtive is the biggest injustice you can give yourself. Irregardless of what your end assessment is realize that reality is reality in spite of how you are anyone else percieves it. You can interpret it anyway you like but you can't change it.

I hope you give yourself the gift of self-actualzation and unbais unprejudiced enlightment for (poetically speaking) a jaded heart and a shelted soul is not a life worth living for.

[may]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

It is self-serving apologetics to divest an omnipotent and omniscient God of responsibility. Isaiah was far more honest.

regarding isaiah 45;7 this scriptures does not mean that God coarses wickedness , it means that nothing can stop Jehovahs purpose from being acomolished ,if opposers try to mess things up he can send them in to calamity but he can bring good to his people ,any prophecy that God makes will come true
the Jewish captives in Babylon had a bright hope, for the God of true prophecy had prophesied liberation. How easy for Jehovah to fulfill his prophecy................. but this verse does not mean that God is bringing earthquakes etc etc onto people its best to read the rest of the chapter then you get the correct context, getting back to today, it is man that is ruining the earth because of mis managing it , so it is not God who brings earthquakes in this time of the end , people always blame God, how sad that must make the god of love feel.
man’s attempt to ‘play God’ is a miserable failure.

[Feathers in Hair]

Eewred, you know I'll respect you whatever you decide. You may want to write out some of the things that you enjoy about being a Christian and some of the things you enjoy from other faiths. (Or atheism, if that's what you find fits your current or long-term beliefs.) When you've got your list, perhaps see if there's a religion that encompasses all of the things that make sense to you, intellectually and spiritually.

I know it's hard to struggle with a path that you've been on for awhile. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help!

[Ardent Listener]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

It is self-serving apologetics to divest an omnipotent and omniscient God of responsibility. Isaiah was far more honest.

I am the source of all things, and all things emerge form me; knowing this, wise men worship by entering my state of being. * 10.8

I am death, shatter of worlds, annihilating all things. * 11.32

Acting with deep compasion from within my own being, I dispel all ignorance-born darkness with wisdom's resplendent light. *10.11

To those who are steadfast, who love me with true devotions, I give the yoga of understanding, which will bring them to where I am. *10.10

* Bhagavad Gita : A new Translation