The Witch of Endor (ritual, Deuteronomy, Kingdom, attend, church)

Green Gaia · #1 10-10-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

1 Samuel 28
Saul and the Witch of Endor
1 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, "You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army."

2 David said, "Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do."
Achish replied, "Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life."

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

For those who believe in a literal reading of the Bible, does this story prove that it is possible for a human to conjure up the spirits of the dead?

michel · #2 10-10-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

For those who believe in a literal reading of the Bible, does this story prove that it is possible for a human to conjure up the spirits of the dead?

I would not say that I do believe in a literal reading of the Old testament; however, It would certainly seem as if it is possible for a human to conjure upm spirits, although in this particular case, it sounds as if the witch was a bit of a fraud, and was shocked when the 'summoning' actually worked.
The defender's notes are in green, and certainly seem to 'go along' with the story, at face value..

28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

Communication with spirits is evidently as old as history, but has been strictly forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 18:9-14). The entities called forth by spirit mediums (a process called "channeling" in the New Age movement) are not the spirits of deceased human beings, as often claimed, but are evil spirits, or demons, under the direction of Satan. When a spirit controls the body of a medium, essentially the body is demon possessed. Any "guidance" from such a source will inevitably be deceptive and dangerous, leading the one so deceived still further from the Lord.

28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

The "witch of En-dor" (1 Samuel 28:7) undoubtedly expected to call up her own "familiar spirit," who could feign a message from Samuel. God, however, actually allowed Samuel's own spirit to return to deliver one final message of condemnation to rebellious Saul. This is why the woman screamed out in shock and fear; her channeling had never before communicated with the departed spirits of real humans.

Green Gaia · #3 10-10-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michel

God, however, actually allowed Samuel's own spirit to return to deliver one final message of condemnation to rebellious Saul.

That's not what the text says.

Scott1 · #4 10-10-2005, 12:27 PM

I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.

Green Gaia · #5 10-10-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.

"you-know-who" is not mentioned in the text either.

The text says the woman brought up Samuel.

michel · #6 10-10-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

I agree with Michel... but would like to clarify one thing: it seems possible for a human to do such a thing, but not of their own power. I would have to say "you-know-who" with the horns and pitchfork had a role in something like this.

I know that this subject is pretty much Taboo in Christianity (and that is reflected in one of the verses) ; I would though like to hear your thoughts on when spiritual people allow their hands to be used to heal others... Surely the Church would not condemn such an act ?

Scott1 · #7 10-10-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maize

"you-know-who" is not mentioned in the text either.

The text says the woman brought up Samuel.

I guess we are reading different texts.

6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him ...

8 "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

A spirit that is not of the Lord?------------> The evil one.