Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong? (Jesus, Earth, disciples, Corinthians)

[Radar]

Without physical evidence it is all hearsay. No matter how many witness' there were.

[greatcalgarian]

Originally Posted by AV1611

First of all, Kirby is not the sum total of scholarship. Thus my 'contempt' for Kirby is not synonymous with 'contempt' for scholarship.

Second of all, acceptance of 2nd Peter into the New Testament canon meeting with great resistance in the early church is fine with me; as long as it wasn't met with great resistance in the early Church.

Third, where the Catholic New American Bible differs with the King James Bible, the Catholic New American Bible is wrong.

Fourth, where modern scholars differ with the King James Bible, modern scholars are wrong.

Fifth, Peter S. Ruckman calls Origen a 'walking, barefoot, ***tard' for reasons I don't want to get into.

King James Version is the final authoritative inspired (or may be written) by God

[greatcalgarian]

Originally Posted by AV1611

Neither did I. Paul wrote in Koine Greek, and God eventually translated it into English.

Did God use the microsoft word processor and Dell computer to do the translation? And I have to assume that it is only into King James

[greatcalgarian]

Originally Posted by AV1611

Forget it. I don't know Greek, and even if I did, if you can't handle the English, you can't handle the Greek.

And, IMHO, it doesn't apply to the Greek version. They had their own literary idiosyncracies, I'm sure.

There are lots of Greek expert in this forum, perhaps you should ask them to help you

[michel]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

Look the crunch point in your argument, for me at least AV1611, is that you are not providing any good reason to treat the Bible differently from any other book. Why should I treat it any differently from a book that I could write claiming another to be the son of a different God? I know I would be lying but how do I know that Paul wasn't lying either?

Here's the thing, Fluffy. The Bible is a very unique book, it was written:

• over a period of 1500 years
• by 40 men who hardly knew each other
• on three continents
• in three languages
• by a variety of occupations (herdsmen to kings)
• for a variety of reasons
• in a variety of circumstances (on the run, as well as sitting at home

And yet, there are no contradictions in doctrine, or the way they describe God, or the things that God tells them to do, or anything.

Now that's quite an accomplishment. Try that today and see what happens, even super-simplifying it.

• put just 5 people that do know each other in separate rooms
• tell each one to write a chapter of a murder mystery
• assign the chapters to each individual so they know where they are in the story
• then compare the final product

It would be total gibberish. A chaotic mess with no continuity.

But not so with God's word. You have total agreement on every page.

No other writing in history even comes close!

And that's just ONE point. There are more. Such as mentioning empires that scientists swore didn't exist (to wit, the Hittites and the Medes). Calling a person by name (Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2) 340 years before he was born.

Mentioning empires that would dominate the world, when at the time, the empire was still in its infancy.

And I didn't even touch on the prophecies concerning Jesus.

You have to admit, that's much more than coincidence!

[michel]

Originally Posted by Radar

Without physical evidence it is all hearsay. No matter how many witness' there were.

I got the evidence right here on my bookshelf. I even have a book that says Christopher Columbus sailed here from Portugal in 1492. I believe it, too.

[JerryL]

And yet, there are no contradictions in doctrine, or the way they describe God, or the things that God tells them to do, or anything.

Of course it's contrary... starting with Genesis and working forward. google "biblical contradictions".

Now that's quite an accomplishment. Try that today and see what happens, even super-simplifying it.

So, what you are saying, is that Christopher Tolkin's sequals to the Dune saga are total gibberish and conflict with Frank's books? I don't see that as true at all.

And that's just ONE point. There are more. Such as mentioning empires that scientists swore didn't exist (to wit, the Hittites and the Medes). Calling a person by name (Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2) 340 years before he was born.

I've got a thread on Bible prophecy. You couldn't offer squat. Feel free to take this up there.

[painted wolf]

hmm...
my faith was deveolped over a period of 10,000 years
by people from three contenents
with over 1,000 languages
over 1,000 nations
in a variety of occupations from priests to farmers to hunter gatherers
in a variety of cercumstances... from within thier temples, out on the artic ice, or in thier lodges.. on the run, in war or in peace.

and yet all the native religions have the same core of faith, regardless of cultural twists and takes on specific myths... we all discribe creator the same, we all hold the same ideals sacred.

I don't eaven touch the prophecies that my people made and that came true...
if it makes your religion true then surely it must work for mine as well.

the increasingly inherant problem with tit for tat justification for a faith.

wa:do

[michel]

Originally Posted by painted wolf

my faith was deveolped over a period of 10,000 years

No it wasn't. The Earth has only been in existence circa 6000, as I showed in other posts.

Your people have only been around for 4355 years (assuming the Flood occurred in 2350 bc.) - the same length of time as my people have (i.e. the Japhethites)

by people from three contenents
with over 1,000 languages
over 1,000 nations
in a variety of occupations from priests to farmers to hunter gatherers
in a variety of cercumstances... from within thier temples, out on the artic ice, or in thier lodges.. on the run, in war or in peace.

That's nice, but re-read what I said. I'm talking about a single Book written from these sources that has no dis-unity of doctrine, despite the fact that the authors wrote independent of each other.

and yet all the native religions have the same core of faith, regardless of cultural twists and takes on specific myths... we all discribe creator the same, we all hold the same ideals sacred.

Again that's nice, but you're leaving too much out. Did many of your authors die a martyr's death? Were they hounded relentlessly by their own people - even to the point of one wanting to take his own life? Was their authority challenged by their own brother and sister? Did one wrestle with the Creator of the Universe in hand-to-hand combat?

I don't eaven touch the prophecies that my people made and that came true...
if it makes your religion true then surely it must work for mine as well.

If even one prophecy failed, what was done about it? My Creator has a 100% efficiency rating, and said if even one failed to occur, the prophet is a fake.

the increasingly inherant problem with tit for tat justification for a faith.

Not even close.

[michel]

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

There are lots of Greek expert in this forum, perhaps you should ask them to help you

No thanks --- the Greeks have too high a margin-of-error ratio. I'll take it in English any day. Where the King James Bible differs from the Greek translations, the Greek translations are wrong.