what !!! Where Jesus said so? (GOD) (Jesus Christ, Creator, Moses, Earth)

[john63]

Originally Posted by AV1611

He is correct.

That is correct.

Yup.

Philippians 2:6 = WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:

John 10:18 = I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN.

He didn't -- Jesus is a monotheist.

Good question.

Interpret this:

1 Timothy 3:16 = AND WITHOUT CONTROVERSY GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY.

How clear is that?

I love Baptists. Right straight to the point with no mincing words. Preach on Brother!

[searcher63]

Originally Posted by The Truth

regarding to what my friend Michel claim, he is saying that Jesus was fully God and fully man.

That means he is the same as God >>>>> FULL GOD

God "the father" = God "the son"

Where did he made himself equal to his father in the bible ??? Show me please.

If he is like his father ( God ) then why he dosn't have the same power the other God
"the father" has?

if he is a fully God then do you think a God will ask for a help from another God ( in the crucifiction ) ??? then how can you define the meaning of God if he is useless that he can't help himself.

let's see ...

In John 10:30we find that Jesus says "I and my Father are one." This verse, according to Christians, shows clearly that God and Jesus Christ are the same. Also we read in John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Here Jesus clearly states that there is distinction between him and God. In other words that Jesus himself has a God. AlsoMatthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" HereJesus Christ cries in loud voice calling his God.

These are two different and opposite ways Jesus relates himself to God. The first one that he and God are one, and the second is that he refers to a higher authority than him which is his God. Now assuming that both are correct statements then we have a contradiction. If, for example, Jesus Christ was God himself as in John 10:30 then it would be more appropriate for him to say "...and to myself, and your God." in John 20:17, or "Myself, Myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" in Matthew 27:46. If, on the other hand, one of them is wrong and the other is correct then we have to discard the one that we believe to be incorrect. Since God does not make mistakes then we no longer believe that the Bible is the word of God (because we believe that there is a contradiction God's words).

A third possibility is that we have to look at how we can interpret the words of Jesus in those verses. As far as John 20:17 and Matthew 27:46 it is very clear that Jesus has a God whom he prays to and Whom has a higher authority than him. We can back this up with other verses from the bible that say, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30). Also Jesus says, "...for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). If Jesus and God were the same then he would not have said what he has said in the above verses. Now, the only verse that can be interpreted is John 10:30. It is the only one that does not render itself clear. The only way John 10:30 could be interpreted such that it does not contradict all the other verses is by saying that Jesus meant that he and God have something in common.

To find out what the common grounds are, we have to look at the context which this verse is in:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 that Jesus is telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and that is; that no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This is what is common between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus is himself is God, or that they are exactly the same.

Let us go on to see what Jesus says in John 10:

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

John 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan

In John 10:31 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). And in John 10:33 they accuse him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he should not hesitate to clarify the matter at this point. Jesus at this point says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" What he is trying to say that if you call "I and my Father are one" blasphemy then you should call what is written in your law "Ye are gods" blasphemy also. The reasoning here is that "Ye are gods" does not mean that you, the Jews, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same with "I and my Father are one." It does not mean that I am God or that we are the same literally. It is just an expression. The same goes for calling himself "the Son of God." This statement should not be taken literally either.

The Holy Quran says, "...Nothing whatsoever (is there) like the like of Him, and He (alone) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing" (Ch 42: Vr 11). Nothing at all is like God, not Moses, not Jesus, not Muhammad, and certainly nothing of His creation.

AMEN BROTHER!!! what a FRUBALISCIOUS POST!!!! John 10:30 is probably the main scripture used to support the Trinity...yet as you rightly point out Jesus was saying ONE in the context of unity
Great post!!!

[muichimotsu]

Jesus preached unity in love, which means that we could say that Jesus is trying a very revolutionary idea about what it is to be of God. Love, compassion, these are the things of God to him. Also understanding that you yourself are just as terrible as any person that you call terrible yourself, especially. The woman from Cyro-Phoenicia (sp?) was the one to teach this, as I recall. And in response to a post a while ago, someone stating that prayer is how you talk to God, I disagree. Prayer has different definitions, as much as religion, faith and God do respectively. To many prayer is just meditating on the nature of God, not trying to talk to God, whatever gender God may be, etc.

[I Panicked! At the Disco]

Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three seperate persons that make up one deity, God. We had a sermon on this yesterday, and as soon as it is placed on our church website, I will post a link to it. It should clear things up.

[michel]

The Truth.

O.K, so just one more time.......................But, this time, The Truth, try to read this not as a Muslim, but as someone who knows nothing of religion; try to understand it without continually contradicting it, and saying that it doesn't make sense..............Go on, give it a try............http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp
Jesus Christ our Creator

A Biblical Defence of the Trinity
by Jonathan Sarfati
The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult for some people to understand. But this is what God has revealed in Scripture about His own Being, so we should believe it.
The doctrine of the Trinity states that in the unity of the Godhead there are three eternal and co-equal Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the same in essence but distinct in role—three Persons (or three centres of consciousness) and one Being (see diagram, below) The different senses of one-ness and three-ness mean that the doctrine is not self-contradictory. This is similar in principle to saying that the navy, army, and airforce are three distinct fighting entities, but are also one armed service. NB: this is not to suggest that the three persons are ‘parts’ of God. Indeed, each Person has the fullness of the Godhead (see Colossians 2:9). A better analogy is that space contains three dimensions, yet the dimensions are not ‘parts’—the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
Biblical derivation

All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture. Some Religions, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and groups known as ‘Oneness’, or ‘Jesus-only’ Pentecostals (not to be confused with mainstream Pentecostals who do believe in the Trinity), are fond of pointing out that the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible. But the doctrine can be logically proven from the following clear teachings of Scripture as follows:

• There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:8). Note that the Hebrew word for ‘one’ is echad which means composite unity—it is used in Genesis 2:24 where the husband and wife become ‘one flesh’. The word for absolute unity is yachid which is never used of God in the Scripture.
• The Father is called God (John 6:27, Ephesians 4:6).
• The Son is called God (Hebrews 1:8. He is also called ‘I am’ in John 8:58 cf. Ex. 3:14—see below for more biblical proof). He has always existed (John 1:1–3, 8:56–58), but took on full human nature in addition to His divine nature at the Incarnation (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5–11).
• The Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3–4), and is personal (Acts 13:2), not some impersonal force as the Jehovah’s Witness cult believes.
• They are distinct, e.g. at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16–17 all three were present and distinct. The Son is baptized, the Father speaks from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, flies down and lands on the Son. See the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ Note that the word ‘name’ is singular, showing that all three Persons are one Being.

The distinction in persons within the one God means that it is possible for Jesus to be the ‘one mediator between God and men’ (1 Timothy 2:5), and to be our ‘advocate with the Father’ (1 John 2:1) when we sin. An advocate is a defence lawyer, who pleads our case before a judge. This demonstrates a distinction between the persons.
The distinction makes the Substitutionary Atonement possible. How else could Jesus be the One on whom the LORD has ‘laid ... the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6)? The one laying and the one on whom our sins are laid must be distinct.
Jesus said that His Father sent Him (John 14:24) and that the Spirit was sent by both the Father (John 14:26) and the Son (John 15:7). This also points to distinct centres of consciousness within the one God.
The fact that Jesus prayed to God the Father (John 17:1) shows there was a distinction between Father and Son. Since Jesus was fully human (as well as fully divine), and humans should pray, it follows that it was proper for Jesus to pray in His humanity.
Also, the deity of the Son, Jesus Christ, is further proved by the fact that He has attributes belonging uniquely to God, e.g.:

• He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).
• He has the ability to forgive sins (Luke 7:47–50) and judge all people (John 5:27).
• He sends forth the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).
• He accepts worship (Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 14:33)
• He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)
• And He is identified with the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the equivalent ‘the first and the last’ (Revelation 1:8, 17–18, cf. Isaiah 44:6).
• In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)

Some Objections to the Trinity Answered

Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.

• Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister—he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

• Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

• Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
• Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.

[nutshell]

How wonderful, michel, that you posted something calling other religions cults.

I completely agree with the diagram, but don't believe in the Trinity. How would you reconcile that?

[EnhancedSpirit]

Let's look at water to explain this. Water (H2O), can take on 3 forms, liquid, solid, and gas. Ice is all water, but all water is not ice. Ice is made of H2O, and so are clouds, but both are seperate of one another.

Does this help you see?

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by EnhancedSpirit

Let's look at water to explain this. Water (H2O), can take on 3 forms, liquid, solid, and gas. Ice is all water, but all water is not ice. Ice is made of H2O, and so are clouds, but both are seperate of one another.

Does this help you see?

Actually, that's one of the classic heresies. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not merely different manifestations of the same God. They are three distinct persons, manifest as one God.

[michel]

Originally Posted by nutshell

How wonderful, michel, that you posted something calling other religions cults.

I completely agree with the diagram, but don't believe in the Trinity. How would you reconcile that?

Aghhhhhhhhhhh sorry; didn't see that bit; I have removed it now.

Did Enhanced Spirit's answer make sense ?

Another analogy would be that I am a husband, a father, and yes, a son. Imagine the different personas I present to my wife, my sons, my parents..