Was Jesus' Sacrifice Significant? (crucify, beliefs, eternity, God, Christ)

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by bartdanr

My emphasis on duration is that 'sacrifice', as I just posted above, involves the irrevocable giving of something that to you has great value. Suffering for a short span of time, giving your life just to regain it--these things don't seem like sacrifice. Is there anything that Jesus gave that he didn't get back?

No.... Jesus was/is divine... the effectiveness of the sacrafice is not based upon what Christ gave up, but on what his sacrafice accomplished= the defeat of death.

But if you expect to have it given back to you, you aren't giving it--you're simply loaning it.

Again, you are right... but you continue to look at Christ and the Passion in humanist terms. Christ was/is God... and could have redeemed humanity with a snap of a finger... the fact that he didn't is the mystery and grace of the incarnation.

Now, as to the importance of obedience to the Father: did God the Father order Jesus to be crucified? And I still have problems with the whole system of sin and punishment as envisioned in Christian theology. God sacrificing himself to himself to pay a debt that he demanded?

Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."( Cor 5:21; cf. Phil 2:7; Rom 8:3.)... I'm sorry, I can't help you understand the "whole system"... only the grace of God can help you there.

And I would like for us to delve more into the idea of 'bearing the sins of the world' and how this causes suffering.

I don't understand this... please help.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by bartdanr

Ok, let's compare the two punishments for sin:

(1) Eternal torment in hell--unlimited pain and suffering for an unlimited period of time, multiplied by millions of humans.

(2) Limited pain and suffering for a limited period of time, multiplied by one human (one human-divine being, Jesus).

If it is as you suggest, that God decideds the punishment for sin, then s/he has established two unequal punishments. I can't see how they are equvalent. Is hell easier than crucifixtion? It certainly lasts longer in conservative Christian theology (i.e., forever vs. a few hours or a few days, depending how you measure Jesus' time of suffering).

Who are you that Christ should have been beaten and crucified for you? I could argue that the punishments are unequal but in the other direction, that the very author of life came down to earth to suffer and die the way he did could be considered more significant then all the humans ever being punished in hell forever. Who are we to weigh the significants of our Creators beating and Crucifixion, who are you to claim that your punishment in hell comes close to even just one slap on Jesus' face? Even if you never accept him as your Savior this side of the grave im sure you will understand the significants of his humiliation, beating and Crucifixion when you stand befor his Majesty and Holiness on Judgement Day. When you see the nail holes in his hands and feet you too may wonder in light of his splender and perfection how someone such as him could have even walked and talked among fallen mankind, let alone make atonement the way he did. It seems you have no comprehension of who Jesus is, maybe you need to take up the attitude of John the Baptist - consider his comments..

And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. Mark 1:7

This same person John is describing is the same person who went through Crucifixion for you, to consider the atonment he made as substandard is not wise esspecially considering he didnt have to make one at all. Its your choice whether or not you are willing to accept him as your Savior.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by Scott1

No.... Jesus was/is divine... the effectiveness of the sacrafice is not based upon what Christ gave up, but on what his sacrafice accomplished= the defeat of death.

How he defeated death? To not be dead !!! it's logic right ? To be like Jonah because Jonah was alive.

"AND HE SAID UNTO THEM TAKE ME UP, AND CAST ME FORTH INTO THE SEA; SO SHALL THE SEA BE CALM UNTO YOU: FOR I KNOW THAT FOR MY SAKE THIS GREAT TEMPEST IS UPON YOU." (Jonah 1:12)

1-The sea was calm unto Jonah so, The cross was calm unto Jesus Crist.

"JONAH PRAYED UNTO THE LORD HIS GOD OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY?" (Jonah 2:1)

2- Jonah prayed unto his God out of the fish's belly, Jesus prayed to God too when he was on the cross.

Surely dead men don't cry and don't pray! The answer again is "ALIVE" For three days and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean: dead or alive? "ALIVE!" is the answer. On the third day it vomits him on the seashore: dead or alive? A-L-I-V-E, of course! What had Jesus prophesied about himself? He said: "AS JONAH WAS ..... SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE" LIKE JONAH. And how was Jonah? Was he dead or alive for three days and three nights? Alive! ALIVE! ALIVE! is the unanimous answer from the Jew, the Christian and the Muslim!

If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb as he himself had foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the death" of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The contradiction between his utterance and its fulfilment is obvious. Jonah ALIVE, Jesus DEAD! Very UNLIKE Jonah! Jesus had said "LIKE Jonah" not UNLIKE Jonah. If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not the TRUE Messiah of the Jews. If the Gospel record is genuine then how can we blame the Jews for rejecting "CHRIST".


Peace be upon you ...

[michel]

Originally Posted by The Truth

How he defeated death? To not be dead !!! it's logic right ? To be like Jonah because Jonah was alive.

"AND HE SAID UNTO THEM TAKE ME UP, AND CAST ME FORTH INTO THE SEA; SO SHALL THE SEA BE CALM UNTO YOU: FOR I KNOW THAT FOR MY SAKE THIS GREAT TEMPEST IS UPON YOU." (Jonah 1:12)

1-The sea was calm unto Jonah so, The cross was calm unto Jesus Crist.

"JONAH PRAYED UNTO THE LORD HIS GOD OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY?" (Jonah 2:1)

2- Jonah prayed unto his God out of the fish's belly, Jesus prayed to God too when he was on the cross.

Surely dead men don't cry and don't pray! The answer again is "ALIVE" For three days and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean: dead or alive? "ALIVE!" is the answer. On the third day it vomits him on the seashore: dead or alive? A-L-I-V-E, of course! What had Jesus prophesied about himself? He said: "AS JONAH WAS ..... SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE" LIKE JONAH. And how was Jonah? Was he dead or alive for three days and three nights? Alive! ALIVE! ALIVE! is the unanimous answer from the Jew, the Christian and the Muslim!

If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb as he himself had foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the death" of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The contradiction between his utterance and its fulfilment is obvious. Jonah ALIVE, Jesus DEAD! Very UNLIKE Jonah! Jesus had said "LIKE Jonah" not UNLIKE Jonah. If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not the TRUE Messiah of the Jews. If the Gospel record is genuine then how can we blame the Jews for rejecting "CHRIST".


Peace be upon you ...

The truth; I think you have again misunderstood; Scott said:-
"No.... Jesus was/is divine... the effectiveness of the sacrafice is not based upon what Christ gave up, but on what his sacrafice accomplished= the defeat of death. "

What he meant by the 'defeat of death' is 'Eternal life' - rebirth in the spiritual heaven - where will will be for evermore......

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by michel

The truth; I think you have again misunderstood; Scott said:-
"No.... Jesus was/is divine... the effectiveness of the sacrafice is not based upon what Christ gave up, but on what his sacrafice accomplished= the defeat of death. "

What he meant by the 'defeat of death' is 'Eternal life' - rebirth in the spiritual heaven - where will will be for evermore......

No michel i know excatly what he meant and what you meant and i just used his words to prove somthing else.

got it?

so please anyone can answer me about my pervious post?

[michel]

Originally Posted by The Truth

No michel i know excatly what he meant and what you meant and i just used his words to prove somthing else.

got it?

so please anyone can answer me about my pervious post?

I am sorry, I am completely confused; Just what are you asking?

[mr.guy]

Originally Posted by The Truth

No michel i know excatly what he meant and what you meant and i just used his words to prove somthing else.

got it?

so please anyone can answer me about my pervious post?

Perhaps you should read michel's answer again. It seems to me he answered your question pretty directly.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by michel

I am sorry, I am completely confused; Just what are you asking?

ok to make it short ... forget about scott.

I'm just trying to say that Jesus's signaficant wasn't by dismissing his spirit sarficing himself for our sin but by being alive even though he was in the tomb ( ALIVE ) for three days as i have proven so far.

That's all.

So, can you please forget about what scott meant and concentrate in what i have said in my pervious post about Jesus & Jonah if you don't mind or if it's not bothering you?

[mr.guy]

The truth, is it possible that jesus was being allegorical? If Jesus is eternally alive, then the sum difference of his physical being while in his tomb is zero. Just my easy answer, though...