Sodom and Gomorra (Jesus, moral, Moses, Gomorrah, coffin)

[YamiB.]

Originally Posted by JerryL

Let's assume that you are right (a gang rape was the plan), that's a condemnation of a homosexual gang rape, not of homosexual acts. (note heterosexual rape is condemned later in the OT, even though heterosexual sex is not)

Of course, I also don't deny that the OT condemns M-M sex, just that Sodom was destroied specifically for homosexuality.

That's what I was saying. Personally I don't think that there are parts of the Bible applicable to Christians which condemns homosexuality. I think Sodom was destroyed because of various sins, none of which were homosexuality.

[JerryL]

That's what I was saying. Personally I don't think that there are parts of the Bible applicable to Christians which condemns homosexuality.

You don't think that the fact that it was punishable by death (m/m anyway) is condemnation?

Actually, Christians don't think the "don't work on the sabbath" is applicable, and that was punishable by death... I see your point, but it makes me wonder if Soddom would be applicable even if it were over homosexuality.

[YamiB.]

Originally Posted by JerryL

You don't think that the fact that it was punishable by death (m/m anyway) is condemnation?

Actually, Christians don't think the "don't work on the sabbath" is applicable, and that was punishable by death... I see your point, but it makes me wonder if Soddom would be applicable even if it were over homosexuality.

Yeah, the laws of Leviticus were applied to Jews, not Christians. How many Christians do you know of that abstain from eating shellfish or wearing clothes with more than one fabric because of religious reasons?

[Mister Emu]

Personally I don't think that there are parts of the Bible applicable to Christians which condemns homosexuality.

You would be mistaken, but there are other threads for that...

As mentioned by others before I believe that Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed for a myriad of reasons. These included inhospitality, and homosexuality. The sin commited against the messengers of the Lord recounted in Genesis is a compund of the two.

[YamiB.]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

You would be mistaken, but there are other threads for that...

As mentioned by others before I believe that Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed for a myriad of reasons. These included inhospitality, and homosexuality. The sin commited against the messengers of the Lord recounted in Genesis is a compund of the two.

When you say homosexuality I assume you mean the act of homosexual sex. How does rape equate to homosexual sex?

[Mister Emu]

When you say homosexuality I assume you mean the act of homosexual sex. How does rape equate to homosexual sex?

Your assumption is partially correct. Because it was homosexual rape...

[JerryL]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

Your assumption is partially correct. Because it was homosexual rape...

As opposed to heterosexual rape which is not sinful?

Actually, I should be mum on that. There's no actual Biblical proscription against rape.

[YamiB.]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

Your assumption is partially correct. Because it was homosexual rape...

So if a bunch of guys got together and raped a couple of girls I would be able to say that one of their sins was heterosexuality?

[Radar]

Lot's poor wife....... so much for justice.....

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

So, why pick on this one sin?

Because many Christian's believe that the Bible is sufficient to warrant a change in the law. Therefore, if the Bible condemns homosexuality, so should the law. Other people find this unnacceptable but do not have a problem with the Bible condemning other things such as murder since their views are more inline with Biblical thinking on these matters.

Originally Posted by Linus

In every translation of this verse that I have seen, angels appear on earth as males. Clearly the inhabitants of the Sodom thought the angels were males. You can deny the homosexual aspect of the story if you want, but the gender (at least, as they appear in this story) of the angels shouldn't really be doubted.

Denial of the homosexual aspect is unnecessary. If God condemned the rape of a girl by a man, would this be condemning heterosexuality? If you feel that such logic makes sense, then feel free to conclude from this story, that homosexuality is being condemned and not the rape occuring between many individuals whose gender is irrelevant and not made much of.

Originally Posted by Linus

Also, It seems strange to me that Lot would offer his daughters to them so the men of the city would rape them. If all these men wanted to do was befriend these angels, it seems a bit odd that Lot would try and make an exchange like that.

It would seem even stranger if he tried to make the exchange if he knew that the men wanted to rape the angels. Afterall, what kind of father wants his daughters raped?

Originally Posted by Linus

What do you think the sin was? Do you have any ideas or theories? And how do you interpret Genesis 19:5?

Rape is being condemned as well as fear of the unknown. Genesis 19:5 could easily mean have sex with but I find the translations meaning "know" and beat up/kill equally justifiable given an abscence of knowledge of the original Greek word.

Originally Posted by YamiB.

I do take this passage to be talking about sexual acts. The men probably thought the angels were just men, but that does make it a condemnation of homosexual sex. Unless I'm mistaken gang rape is not regular homosexual sex.

Thankyou, that was wonderfully put. Have some frubals .

Originally Posted by JerryL

You don't think that the fact that it was punishable by death (m/m anyway) is condemnation?

I think that all of the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are refutable.

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

Your assumption is partially correct. Because it was homosexual rape...

How can we tell that the passage refers to both homosexuality and rape? If they were heterosexual, it would be logical to assume it just referred to rape yes? Why change the logic, then, if the sexuality changes?