Sodom and Gomorra (Jesus, moral, Moses, Gomorrah, coffin)

[Linus]

Genesis 19: 4-5

Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." (NASB)

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them (NIV)

as they were preparing to retire for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out so we can have sex with them (NLT)

But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them (ESV)

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally (NKJV)

I posted those translations to show you one thing

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Angel's are of course genderless, but people's interpretations have a habit of warping stories.

In every translation of this verse that I have seen, angels appear on earth as males. Clearly the inhabitants of the Sodom thought the angels were males. You can deny the homosexual aspect of the story if you want, but the gender (at least, as they appear in this story) of the angels shouldn't really be doubted.

Also, It seems strange to me that Lot would offer his daughters to them so the men of the city would rape them. If all these men wanted to do was befriend these angels, it seems a bit odd that Lot would try and make an exchange like that.

[JerryL]

Also, It seems strange to me that Lot would offer his daughters to them so the men of the city would rape them. If all these men wanted to do was befriend these angels, it seems a bit odd that Lot would try and make an exchange like that.

No one has claimed that the people outside lot's door intended good things for the angels. The claim is that homosexuality is not the sin for which soddom was condemned, nor neccessairily the major one in the story.

Two wanderers appear in town. The first man they meet offers them food and shelted (prob. should have sent them on their way for their own good). The town gathers and wants to do bad things to them, but the guy puts his property (daughters) in harms way to protect them.

They in-turn protect him and kill all the inhospitable people.

[Linus]

What do you think the sin was? Do you have any ideas or theories? And how do you interpret Genesis 19:5?

[JerryL]

What do you think the sin was?

I thought I had been VERY clear on that: Inhospitality

"It seems likely that the "nail in the coffin" sin was one of inhospitality" - post 2

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JerryL

I thought I had been VERY clear on that: Inhospitality

"It seems likely that the "nail in the coffin" sin was one of inhospitality" - post 2

I see. I disagree, but I see.

You still never told me how do interpret Genesis 19:5. I am quite interested in your thoughts.

[JerryL]

and they call unto Lot and say to him, `Where [are] the men who have come in unto thee to-night? bring them out unto us, and we know them.'

The people of the town called out lot to surrender his guests to the crowd... and not with a good purpose.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JerryL

The people of the town called out lot to surrender his guests to the crowd... and not with a good purpose.

What translation is that? Wat would the purpose be?

[JerryL]

Originally Posted by Linus

What translation is that? Wat would the purpose be?

Young's literal and "I'm not sure"

[YamiB.]

I do take this passage to be talking about sexual acts. The men probably thought the angels were just men, but that does make it a condemnation of homosexual sex. Unless I'm mistaken gang rape is not regular homosexual sex.

[JerryL]

I do take this passage to be talking about sexual acts. The men probably thought the angels were just men, but that does make it a condemnation of homosexual sex. Unless I'm mistaken gang rape is not regular homosexual sex.

Let's assume that you are right (a gang rape was the plan), that's a condemnation of a homosexual gang rape, not of homosexual acts. (note heterosexual rape is condemned later in the OT, even though heterosexual sex is not)

Of course, I also don't deny that the OT condemns M-M sex, just that Sodom was destroied specifically for homosexuality.