trinity, godhead, or neither (Jesus Christ, translation, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, bible)

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Hi, Jensen.

Your question suggests that you are a Jehovah's Witness. Would you care to confirm my suspicions? (It's not my intention to pry. If you'd rather remain anonymous with respect to your denominational affiliation, that's okay. Sometimes it just helps to know the background of the individual you're debating with.) I'm actually fine with the way the KJV was translated. In my opinion, He recognized Jesus as his Lord, his God, his Savior and his Redeemer. He did not, however, recognize Him as His own Father! (But then I'm sure I don't have to convince you of that!)

Kathryn

Sure. And no I am not a Jehovah's Witness.

If Thomas recognized Jesus as is God, then who and what is the Father to Thomas? One can't have a God who has a God without their being more than one God. That is how I see it.



Jensen

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jensen

Sure. And no I am not a Jehovah's Witness.

If Thomas recognized Jesus as is God, then who and what is the Father to Thomas? One can't have a God who has a God without their being more than one God. That is how I see it.



Jensen

Jesus is our God. That doesn't change by the fact that he has a father, who is also God. It's like your boss. He probably has a boss, too. But he's still your boss.

[Harvster]

Hmm. The way you wrote that sentence makes me think that, at least in this regard, we think of them in the same manner

Aqualung,

I would have to say no. What I am saying here is that I believe that they are three distinct (unique) persons (Hypostase), that being; they are all individual of each other allowing them to perform their separate roles as seen in the NT. With that in mind they are also divinely equal to each other. In other words they are all God/divine (individually) but because the bible states that there is only one God, the trinity implies that the three together form one essence or class which by nature is God. When I state they only have one name I mean that in the bible the three together are referred to as God (Elohim [plural]) i.e. Gen 1:1.

Please refer to the following link particularly the triangular diagram which should explain my position on the Trinity.

http://theology.home.att.net/trinity/#understand

Harvs

[michel]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Jesus is our God. That doesn't change by the fact that he has a father, who is also God. It's like your boss. He probably has a boss, too. But he's still your boss.

But what if your boss' boss claimed that he is The Boss, and other than him, there are no bosses. Then, to take it a step further, what if he claimed that to obey any other person as boss would constitute idolatry?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by AV1611

But what if your boss' boss claimed that he is The Boss, and other than him, there are no bosses. Then, to take it a step further, what if he claimed that to obey any other person as boss would constitute idolatry?

If you refer to Jesus as "God" and the Father as "God," and if you try to obey the commandments they gave, do you consider it idolatry? Would it somehow make a difference if I'd said, "if you try to obey they commandments He gave"? In this context, do you really see the first sentence as an example of idolatry?

[michel]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

If you refer to Jesus as "God" and the Father as "God," and if you try to obey the commandments they gave, do you consider it idolatry?

No.

Would it somehow make a difference if I'd said, "if you try to obey they commandments He gave"? In this context, do you really see the first sentence as an example of idolatry?

I'm lost here. The words of Jesus are the words of Jehovah, and the words of Jehovah are the words of Jesus.

By retrospect, it would be correct to say:

In the beginning, Jesus created the Heaven and the Earth.

And Jesus said, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

And Jesus said, let us make man in our image.

Etc.

It would also be correct to say,

And Jehovah bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

And Jehovah walked on water.

As well as: And the Holy Ghost bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

And the Holy Ghost walked on water.

And, in the beginning, the Holy Ghost created the Heaven and the Earth. And the Earth was without form, and void, and Jesus moved on the face of the waters.

I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Harvster

Aqualung,

I would have to say no. What I am saying here is that I believe that they are three distinct (unique) persons (Hypostase), that being; they are all individual of each other allowing them to perform their separate roles as seen in the NT. With that in mind they are also divinely equal to each other. In other words they are all God/divine (individually)

I agree with all that you have said so far.

Originally Posted by harvster

but because the bible states that there is only one God, the trinity implies that the three together form one essence or class which by nature is God.

What do you mean by essence or class?

[Aqualung]

Never mind about that picture. See, we essentially beleive the same thing. You call it "trinity," I call it "godhead."

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

If you refer to Jesus as "God" and the Father as "God," and if you try to obey the commandments they gave, do you consider it idolatry? Would it somehow make a difference if I'd said, "if you try to obey they commandments He gave"? In this context, do you really see the first sentence as an example of idolatry?

yes, good point. Everything that Jesus tells us to do, he tells us to do because god told him to tell us. "not my authorit but my fathers," or whatever that quote is. You would really only have an issue with it if they told you to do different things, but they are both doing the same thing, as they are united in purpose.