trinity, godhead, or neither (Jesus Christ, translation, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, bible)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by AV1611

Name it then, please --- from the Periodic Table.

I say Adam and Eve are Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Oxygen.

Are you saying God is the same thing???

(Oh, you can ask questions of me; I just can't ask questions of you. What a strange sort of debate this is turning out to be!)

Sorry, chemistry was never my strongest subject. I hope you'll forgive me for not describing God's chemical composition. I believe that He is a glorified, immortal celestial being -- just like the Jesus Christ, who sits on His right hand side. (Of course, if you believe they are one and the same, and if you don't believe that God doesn't have a physical form at all, this can be probematic.)

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

That was uncalled for. I am not "spouting" anything. I am merely demonstrating that my beliefs are grounded in the scriptures. It appears as if you are attempting to do the same thing. The main difference is that I appear to be doing so more effectively.

[Sooperhotshiz]

It is fairly difficult to tell without opinion. Some of the best unitarian arguments against the Trinity I have heard from Jehovahs Witenesses, I have seen large debates. From the NT alone, I wouldn't have a clue how exactly to define the Holy Spirit. Something that endwells people, makes them one body? With Christ, several times he has shown to be god-like, several he has shown not to be. I would have to say that the NT is fairly unclear about this and arguments can be made on both ends. In my opinion though, there is no trinity in the NT.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Sooperhotshiz

In my opinion though, there is no trinity in the NT.

1 John 4:7 says FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.

When Jesus used these same words (are one) in John 10:30, they attempted to stone Him for claiming to be God.

John 3:16 = ...ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...

• This means that Jesus was God, since an animal begets an animal, a human begets a human, God begets God
• Jesus referred to God as His Father, yet Matthew makes it clear that the Holy Ghost is His Father - (Matthew 1:20)

Paul says in Colossians 2:9, speaking of Jesus: FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.

The Bible indeed supports the Godhead.

[Sooperhotshiz]

1 John 4:7 says FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.

1 John 4:7 does not, “7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.”

When Jesus used these same words (are one) in John 10:30, they attempted to stone Him for claiming to be God.

Mark 10:17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.”

John 3:16 = ...ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...

This means that Jesus was God, since an animal begets an animal, a human begets a human, God begets God

I use a dictionary to define words, not opinion.

Jesus referred to God as His Father, yet Matthew makes it clear that the Holy Ghost is His Father - (Matthew 1:20)

All born again Chrisitans are reborn with the holy spirit, sometimes it is difficult to define what the holy spirit exactly is. In your opinion, it is obviously God.

Paul says in Colossians 2:9, speaking of Jesus: FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.

You are using a minority in translation.

9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him
It is saying that when Christ died, all sins were forgiven, are now in him, and transitioned previous laws from the psysical into the spiritual.

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

There are many gods. But we only have one God. It doesn't really matter if you think it's God, or Jesus. God is essentially directing Jesus, but Jesus is the one who is directly our God. Since they are united in purpose, there is no discrepency between the two, and so it doesn't really matter which you think of. But Jesus is directly our God. God is just Jesus' supervisor.
Jesus wasn't a mere messanger. He came to restore the higher law. He came to fulfill god's promise to his children. He wasn't just telling people what his plan was, like angels, he was fulfilling the plan.
Angels aren't the only begotten son of god, either.

There are many that are called gods, but that doesn't mean they are real gods. Even man is called gods in the Psalms.

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4).


Exodus 6

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. KJV

His name is YHWH, Jesus is the Son.
Mark 15:

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Therefore Jesus is not God.
John 17:3,

3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. NASB

...that they may know you, the only true God...the actual words of Jesus saying another is God.

Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"... we know ... that there is no God but one" (I Corinthians 8:4).

"yet for us there is one God, the Father , from whom are all things" (I Corinthians 8:6).

"there is ... one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:6).

one God and Father.... one God and Father of Jesus.


Jesus said that he is the Son:

John 10

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Luke 22:70,71,NASB,
70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."
71 Then they said, "What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth."

In verse 36 he says he is the Son, and also he says "Yes, I am" when asked if he is the Son of God.

Also I did not say that he was a "mere" messenger....giving the impression that I said something other than I did.

Jesus was many things, and messenger was one of them.

I must admit that this belief that there are many gods is new to me...I didn't know that anyone believed that. The many gods and false gods spoken of in the bible are not literal actual living gods, (some are idols )but the imaginations in the minds of men who believe other than what God Almighty states in the bible, that he is the only God.

Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject, but I've been through this discussion so many times for several years now on other message boards, so therefore I see little point in going into it all over again, so I will be bowing out. Hope that you all have a fullfilling and rewarding discussion that is a learning experience...God bless..

Jensen

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jensen

I must admit that this belief that there are many gods is new to me...I didn't know that anyone believed that. The many gods and false gods spoken of in the bible are not literal actual living gods, (some are idols )but the imaginations in the minds of men who believe other than what God Almighty states in the bible, that he is the only God

Just because there are other, real gods does not mean that they are worthy of our worship. If there is another god, and he created some other world, what is that to us? We only have one God, who was our creator and is our Lord. What does it matter if there are other gods? We only have one worthy of our worship.

Originally Posted by Jensen

Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject, but I've been through this discussion so many times for several years now on other message boards, so therefore I see little point in going into it all over again, so I will be bowing out

wow. Sorry my threads aren't up to your standards, and sorry I don't visit all the same forums as you. Next time, I'll be sure to ask you before I start a thread so you won't be as bored.

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Just because there are other, real gods does not mean that they are worthy of our worship. If there is another god, and he created some other world, what is that to us? We only have one God, who was our creator and is our Lord. What does it matter if there are other gods? We only have one worthy of our worship.

wow. Sorry my threads aren't up to your standards, and sorry I don't visit all the same forums as you. Next time, I'll be sure to ask you before I start a thread so you won't be as bored.

Wow! Where did you get all that from what I said? My goodness what is the matter with you? I said the subject is interesting but that I was bowing out as I've been over this topic so many times before...I never said that your threads aren't up to my standards, or that you should visit the same forums as I do, nor did I imply that you ask me before starting a thread....nor did I say that I was bored. Please do not misrepresent what I did say .


God bless, take care, happy discussing.

Jensen

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jensen

Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject

Well, I don't know. That seemed to me like saying that this thread was boring. Perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I don't really know how else I could have seen that.

Originally Posted by Jensen

I said the subject is interesting

It really seems like you said the opposite.

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Well, I don't know. That seemed to me like saying that this thread was boring. Perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I don't really know how else I could have seen that.
It really seems like you said the opposite.

If I thought the thread was boring...I'd have said that. What I said is below, and I definitely said that "this thread is an interesting subject.." If you wish to mis-read something go right ahead...or read it as you wish, but don't say that I said or meant something that I did not. God bless...

In Jesus' love,

Jensen

.................................................. .................................................. .


"Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject, but I've been through this discussion so many times for several years now on other message boards, so therefore I see little point in going into it all over again, so I will be bowing out. Hope that you all have a fullfilling and rewarding discussion that is a learning experience...God bless.."

Jensen