trinity, godhead, or neither (Jesus Christ, translation, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, bible) - Page 10

Jensen · #91 08-31-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Jesus is our God. That doesn't change by the fact that he has a father, who is also God. It's like your boss. He probably has a boss, too. But he's still your boss.

That is more than one God. YHWH is God and Jesus is God...? The Holy Spirit is God? If being divine is being deity or God, than all the angels must be God/gods also?

Jensen · #92 08-31-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

No.

I'm lost here. The words of Jesus are the words of Jehovah, and the words of Jehovah are the words of Jesus.

By retrospect, it would be correct to say:

In the beginning, Jesus created the Heaven and the Earth.

And Jesus said, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

And Jesus said, let us make man in our image.

Etc.

It would also be correct to say,

And Jehovah bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

And Jehovah walked on water.

As well as: And the Holy Ghost bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

And the Holy Ghost walked on water.

And, in the beginning, the Holy Ghost created the Heaven and the Earth. And the Earth was without form, and void, and Jesus moved on the face of the waters.

I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

It would not be correct to say that as YHWH is God and Jesus is the Son of God just as the bible says. If it were correct to say that, the verses would say that and they don't.

Aqualung · #93 08-31-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jensen

That is more than one God. YHWH is God and Jesus is God...? The Holy Spirit is God? If being divine is being deity or God, than all the angels must be God/gods also?

It's more than one God, yes. But Jesus is the only who is our God. He is "directed" by our Heavenly Father, who is also a god, and generally lets us know about his plan through the Holy Spirit, which is also a god. But Jesus is our lord and god. Angels aren't gods. they are messengers sent from god, but they aren't gods themselves.

Jensen · #94 08-31-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqualung

It's more than one God, yes. But Jesus is the only who is our God. He is "directed" by our Heavenly Father, who is also a god, and generally lets us know about his plan through the Holy Spirit, which is also a god. But Jesus is our lord and god. Angels aren't gods. they are messengers sent from god, but they aren't gods themselves.

Jesus was a messenger sent by God too. There is one God just as the bible says...not many gods. And may I ask why Jesus is a God with a capital G and his Father is with a small g?

Oh, 1 John 5:7 is spurious.

michel · #95 08-31-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IacobPersul

This is the problem caused by translating Hypostasis into English as person - in English the word person includes both their substance (essence, if you like) and whatever makes them a unique person. Hypostasis includes only the latter idea, which is why I dislike saying person in this context (besides the fact that 'person' in Greek is a different word entirely).

In effect my person (me, the unique individual) is comprised of my human essence (the nature common to all humans) and my personal hypostasis, that which makes me uniquely me. God, if you're a Trinitarian, is comprised of His uniquely Divine Essence and the three Hypostases that are uniquely the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God, then is neither a monad nor a collection of three, individual beings, but what He is is rather difficult to explain (and I still don't think I've managed it here, but who knows?)

James

I think you did a good job, James - but I believe in the trinity in any case, so I suppose i have an advantage.

Aqualung · #96 08-31-2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jensen

Jesus was a messenger sent by God too. There is one God just as the bible says...not many gods. And may I ask why Jesus is a God with a capital G and his Father is with a small g?

Oh, 1 John 5:7 is spurious.

There are many gods. But we only have one God. It doesn't really matter if you think it's God, or Jesus. God is essentially directing Jesus, but Jesus is the one who is directly our God. Since they are united in purpose, there is no discrepency between the two, and so it doesn't really matter which you think of. But Jesus is directly our God. God is just Jesus' supervisor.
Jesus wasn't a mere messanger. He came to restore the higher law. He came to fulfill god's promise to his children. He wasn't just telling people what his plan was, like angels, he was fulfilling the plan.
Angels aren't the only begotten son of god, either.

Katzpur · #97 08-31-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jensen

Jesus was a messenger sent by God too. There is one God just as the bible says...not many gods. And may I ask why Jesus is a God with a capital G and his Father is with a small g?

Oh, 1 John 5:7 is spurious.

Jensen,

There are, in the Bible (KJV, at least) 294 references to the "gods" you say do not exist. Without question, the word is used in various ways, depending upon context. It is also fairly obvious that the word "gods" is often used to describe "false gods."

However, certain verses seem to imply the existence of "divine beings" of some sort. They do not appear to be "false gods" or anything of the sort. The Bible doesn't actually clarify who they are at all. For example:

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Exodus 15:11)

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. (Exodus 18:11)

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward... (Deuteronomy 10:17)

The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD... (Joshua 22:22)

How do you explain these? (P.S. 1Corinthians 8:5-6 has the answer, in case you don't.

)

Kathryn

Aqualung · #98 08-31-2005, 07:06 PM

One of the things Katzpur asked, is in relation to 1 Jn 5:7. How are they one? Does that necesarily mean in substance? Or can that mean in purpose? Such as how me and katzpur are one. Generally what she says I agree with. We are one.

michel · #99 08-31-2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Since I use the same "manual" as you do, I also believe that they are "one." But I believe I have explained how they are "one," whereas you just keep saying essentially the same thing over and over again without addressing my question.

Katz, look. I admit. This IS very frustrating. I find it very hard to believe you're so curious about what "substance" God is made of. I think it obvious that we don't know. I know what you're doing, though. You're using me as a channel to espouse Mormon doctrine, and it's not going to work. This Adam and Eve stuff coming to Earth from another planet isn't going to cut it with me. And the Mormon church today having living apostles and prophets fools only others, but not the true followers of Sola Scriptura. That's why you don't like that doctrine (Sola Scriptura), it cuts off three of your major books you hold to be sacred.

Again, I'm not here to bash the Mormons; and if your next post has ONE question mark in it, I'm going to ignore it.

I don't mean to be rude. Just assertive.

James the Persian · #**100** 09-01-2005, 02:39 AM

Kathryn,

On your question about Christ, Christology as taught by the Church and defended by the Councils has it that Christ is fully God and fully man. He is not just God with a human body but has a full human as well as a full divine nature. He is both God Incarnate and divinised man. To go back to similar wording to that which I used to attemp