Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah) - Page 5

logician · #41 03-27-2008, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

a myth it may be but for millions it is an unalterable truth and a way of life and death

Still doesn't make it fact.

kai · #42 03-27-2008, 06:20 AM

i agree

kai · #43 03-27-2008, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

No, He does not describe Himself, the Prophet speaks His Revelation which is limited in its ability to define the indefinable. To assume that language can define the indefinable is not reasonable.

Regards,
Scott

scott you are ignoring most of the old testament where god describes his essence his wants of man and his desires that he wishes man to fulfill.

you are of course ignoring the Christs teachings because you don't believe him to be god

and you must ignore the Quran because it negates your own faith

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

In the Quran, we read that Allah is Compassionate and Merciful. He is Kind, Loving, and Wise. He is the Creator, the Sustainer, the Healer. He is the One who Guides, the One who Protects, the One who Forgives. There are traditionally ninety nine names, or attributes, that Muslims use to describe Allah's nature.

Michel07 · #44 03-27-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDB

'Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and the text does indicate, he to be one, with the Father...
I was only responding to the " impossibility" of two beings in one and of course in my faith it is three. The Trinity.'

Michel07, If God really is three beings in one, why would he say:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me

andDeuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Notice clearly that there is no 'WE'! There is only ONE God and he is ONE being, not three.

Can't find 'we are thy God' in the Bible anywhere...

The Son of God is NOT God the Son!

And have you stopped to think that since God cannot die, and if Jesus is supposed to be 'God the Son', then entire passages of the New Testament are completely false?

Genesis 1, 26 Then God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Your last point completely misses the Resurrection and that death could not contain Jesus.

Dirty Penguin · #45 03-27-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel07

I was only responding to the " impossibility" of two beings in one and of course in my faith it is three. The Trinity.

Yeshua and God are never shown to be one god if you're looking throughout the 4 gospels. I give you that the men who came after Yeshua offering their opinions linked the two in their writings and letters.

Examining what Yeshua said and what his followers thought of him should never lead on to believe he and God are one in the same. This is why when you pointed out them being one I responded thinking you meant that they were one in purpose as shown by John chapter 17.

One in purpose is what he taught and it is exactly what he meant. There is no doubt that Yeshua saw himself separate from his god. There are numerous verses that show this. Some notable ones are surrounding his prayer, crying and begging in the garden before he was taken. His supposed cry on the cross. Even before all that he utters..."my god and your god"....... Additionally, when we read Yeshua's prayer to his god saying "You are the one true god, I am the anointed one whom you have sent".......logically we are drawn to the conclusion that he is not God.

If one does not conclude this by that statement then I believe they misunderstood it. It, by far, is one of the clearest verses given by Yeshua. Mind you....the whole of chapter 17 is nothing more than a prayer from Yeshua to his god and it sets to the tone as to how Yeshua viewed himself in relation to his god as well as his hope that all his followers would share that same connection (oneness). When he says...."I came from heaven, not of my own will, but the will of the one who sent me.... No real interpretation is needed.

If it was an angel that said it one would not conclude that the angel is God.....They would clearly point out that the angel was sent by the will of God. This is the case of Yeshua. John (The Baptist) understood there was a difference when we read him saying "For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit." This view of Yeshua was consistent. Another one of his followers says to him....."But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." This same follower also acknowledges his relation to God but she didn't view him as God but rather the son of God....("I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."). This is exactly how Yeshua saw himself ("You are the one true god, I am the Messiah whom you have sent).....

Michel07 · #46 03-27-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

Yeshua and God are never shown to be one god if you're looking throughout the 4 gospels. I give you that the men who came after Yeshua offering their opinions linked the two in their writings and letters.

Examining what Yeshua said and what his followers thought of him should never lead on to believe he and God are one in the same. This is why when you pointed out them being one I responded thinking you meant that they were one in purpose as shown by John chapter 17.

One in purpose is what he taught and it is exactly what he meant. There is no doubt that Yeshua saw himself separate from his god. There are numerous verses that show this. Some notable ones are surrounding his prayer, crying and begging in the garden before he was taken. His supposed cry on the cross. Even before all that he utters..."my god and your god"....... Additionally, when we read Yeshua's prayer to his god saying "You are the one true god, I am the anointed one whom you have sent".......logically we are drawn to the conclusion that he is not God.

If one does not conclude this by that statement then I believe they misunderstood it. It, by far, is one of the clearest verses given by Yeshua. Mind you....the whole of chapter 17 is nothing more than a prayer from Yeshua to his god and it sets to the tone as to how Yeshua viewed himself in relation to his god as well as his hope that all his followers would share that same connection (oneness). When he says...."I came from heaven, not of my own will, but the will of the one who sent me.... No real interpretation is needed.

If it was an angel that said it one would not conclude that the angel is God.....They would clearly point out that the angel was sent by the will of God. This is the case of Yeshua. John (The Baptist) understood there was a difference when we read him saying "For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit." This view of Yeshua was consistent. Another one of his followers says to him....."But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." This same follower also acknowledges his relation to God but she didn't view him as God but rather the son of God....("I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."). This is exactly how Yeshua saw himself ("You are the one true god, I am the Messiah whom you have sent).....

I guess those are your beliefs.

Dirty Penguin · #47 03-27-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel07

Genesis 1, 26 Then God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Yes, but we are not amused. When I say (we)....I mean ME.......because you can't have 1:26 (which would seem to be in the plural tense) without having 1:27 where (Elohim) is viewed in the singular tense...

Gen 1:27
So God (Elohim) created man in his own image, in the image of God (Elohim) created he him; male and female created he them.

Dirty Penguin · #48 03-27-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel07

I guess those are your beliefs.

It's not that I believe them......they are what they are.....they are there in the scripture......

I guess it could be summed up to interpretation but as I previously stated.....a lot of those verses Yeshua spoke were some of the clearest ones which did not need over analyzing.

Ronald · #49 03-27-2008, 10:38 AM

I am surprised at how may see a difference between the mind of God, the word of God and the enity it's self. The NT says in no uncertain terms, "And the 'word' became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."

Shalom