Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

None whatsoever.....Just "Common Sense"...hence my avatar.

Recently in a different thread you implied to me that you are not a theist but an atheist. You can imagine my astonishment to see you still arguing for a strongly theistic position in yet another God/Jesus thread. Even more astonishing is that you dogmatically stick to one particular theistic intepretation as being 'correct', this despite you having been shown many times in other threads that your points fit in equally well with the other major interpretations, (in fact they require them). Yet still you choose one and only one in particular over and above the rest, answering other people's interpretation with your own as if it were fact.

You said to me in this thread (emphasis mine): "You and I have had long debates over the nature of Yeshua but If I didn't tell you, you'd think I was a theist. As I engage in a discussion/debate on this forum or anywhere else I treat others as though they actually believe the stuff in their books so I meet them on their level to discuss what they believe. In our discussions I never say that their prophets or deity(s) don't exist or never have. When a theist meets me on my level to discuss my views then you may hear me say some thing like that. As athiest we should respect your lifestyle.....but we reserve the right disagree with you."

I don't need my hand to be held thanks. Debate forums are for debating, not posturing! Debate forums are a place for atheists to disagree with theists, so what are you ashamed of?? If you are intellectually honest you will come out swinging for what you believe in; but therein lies the problem: You see, one might even think that you are simply adopting a position for the sake of argument and debating it, but there is no evidence of this, quite the contrary, because you still pick a specific theistic position and run with it - the last thing you are arguing for is atheism! If you are true to not being a theist then you should reject all of the theistic positions presented here, otherwise, I for one will believe you to be a theist.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

Rubbish.......


The fact that he has to pray for it means he's not God......

Are you saying that God has all that He wants? Is everyone calling God Holy and obeying Him? And who will God pray to? Will God pray to you for you to move men's hearts?

But let us say that God doesn't have to pray. It is still reasonable to say that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He prays only to provide an example to His disciples.

What do you object to in my statement for you to call it rubbish? Are you saying that I am wrong and that everyone is one with God and everyhting is perfect in this world?

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by rocketman

Recently in a different thread you implied to me that you are not a theist but an atheist. You can imagine my astonishment to see you still arguing for a strongly theistic position in yet another God/Jesus thread. Even more astonishing is that you dogmatically stick to one particular theistic intepretation as being 'correct', this despite you having been shown many times in other threads that your points fit in equally well with the other major interpretations, (in fact they require them). Yet still you choose one and only one in particular over and above the rest, answering other people's interpretation with your own as if it were fact.

Then it shows how little you know. It's not a "theistic" view at all. It's a thelogical view, and even an intellectual view. One does not have to be a theist to debate on a subject he or she understands. I don't have to believe in anything you believe in...in order to debate the subject. The subject here is "Jesus is God" and it has been placed in the "Biblical Debates" area. There was no criteria...stating theist only...or believers only. Since you take issue with me debating with you then you have the choice to not debate with me. Now......I have studied your book backward and forward. I might, occasionally, miss a thing or two but I know your book...as well as the quran....and I do not have to be a theist to hold an intelligent debate over something as simple as this subject.

Originally Posted by rocketman

You said to me in this thread (emphasis mine): "You and I have had long debates over the nature of Yeshua but If I didn't tell you, you'd think I was a theist. As I engage in a discussion/debate on this forum or anywhere else I treat others as though they actually believe the stuff in their books so I meet them on their level to discuss what they believe. In our discussions I never say that their prophets or deity(s) don't exist or never have. When a theist meets me on my level to discuss my views then you may hear me say some thing like that. As athiest we should respect your lifestyle.....but we reserve the right disagree with you."

I don't see what the problem is. Look, I highlighted everything for you. I know you believe what you do but in this debate, that aside, there is no information in the four gospels Yeshua claimed he was God nor is it something that he taught his followers. We are strictly talking about the book.....not whether or not there was a historical Yeshua.

You will most certainly be able to find another christian who does not hold to your interpretation of the bible.....do you take issue with him as well when he argues against the trinitarian view? One can either be a theist or a non-theist to debate these dogmatic views you hold.

Originally Posted by rocketman

I don't need my hand to be held thanks. Debate forums are for debating, not posturing!

Who's posturing here? Certainly not me. I'm simply responding to a topic. You seem to take issue with it...or with me...or maybe it's your dislike for atheist. Whatever it is you'll have to work it out for yourself.

Originally Posted by rocketman

Debate forums are a place for atheists to disagree with theists

This debate forum offers a lot.....from games, to movies and a host of other topics atheist are involved in. So I don't see what the problem is......

Originally Posted by rocketman

so what are you ashamed of?? If you are intellectually honest you will come out swinging for what you believe in;

Ahhh.....you want me to take sides but when I argue my position you take issue with me. Again..... your scripture have not and do not reveal Yeshua to be God. I say this because every place and quote you all bring up.....has nothing to do with him stating he was or teaching his followers he was. All of these biblical quotes that are brought up to prove he is are, in most cases, out of context but seemed to be backed up only by church traditions. And here it is... you thinking I'm the only one disagreeing with you because I'm an atheist.....when there are plenty of your own christian bretheren who disagree and dispise trinitarian teachings. The difference with me is I don't despise it...I just disagree with it (Observe my quote you've provided).

Originally Posted by rocketman

but therein lies the problem: You see, one might even think that you are simply adopting a position for the sake of argument and debating it, but there is no evidence of this, quite the contrary, because you still pick a specific theistic position and run with it

Or can it be that I simply disagree with you? Can it just be that simple?

Originally Posted by rocketman

- the last thing you are arguing for is atheism! If you are true to not being a theist then you should reject all of the theistic positions presented here, otherwise, I for one will believe you to be a theist.

I can't control what you believe. The problem with you is that you think I should make a choice as to what discussions I should be involved in. It's not for you to decide these matters. I do whatever I feel like doing...regardless of your approval or not......I have no problem, as you have seen, picking up your book and discussing what is written in it. I will continue to do it.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Muffled

Are you saying that God has all that He wants? Is everyone calling God Holy and obeying Him? And who will God pray to? Will God pray to you for you to move men's hearts?

Interesting how none of this has anything to do with the topic. I'm not sure what you want me to do with these.

Originally Posted by Muffled

But let us say that God doesn't have to pray. It is still reasonable to say that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He prays only to provide an example to His disciples.

So we're back to making assumptions? Other than Lazarus...I'm not sure of any other place where Yeshua was praying to his god to set an example. If that were the case then he could have left out the actual instructions on how to pray to God. And..so when he was praying, crying and begging his god to spare his life...you say that was for the benefit of the sleeping disciples and not himself?

Originally Posted by Muffled

What do you object to in my statement for you to call it rubbish?

I already said why...

[Jordan St. Francis]

Dirty Penguin:
This is not a claim to deity. The very first verse should give you a tip...... "You believe in God now believe in me".......(some bibles say.....You believe in God then believe in me as well)

You interpret everything in John according to what your opinion about Jesus' Deity already is...You like to point out that Jesus is a portrayed as a separate person, and I never disagreed. This is why the Early Church came out so harshly against modalism- the text does not support the idea that Jesus is just a form that God has temporarily taken up in order to reveal himself.

What we are talking about is the nature of Jesus. Where does he come from? What is his origin? What is his essence? The Gospel of John lays down that Jesus is con-substantial with God. God and Jesus are of "the same being". Jesus is the Eternal Word, existing as the Only Begotten in the Bosom of the Father, the agent of creation (ie. Lord over the Sabbath)

He shares in God's essential qualities- he is the Way, the Truth and the Life, he is the one whom through all things receive their life.

So, if we are going to speak about context over and over again, let us begin with the initial context of the Gospel:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

...The Word became flesh and dwelt among us

...What came into being in him was life and that life is the light of men....

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (New American Standard Bible)

Dirty Penguin
Well, to me, Paul's opinions mean very little to me since he never met Yeshua...rather claimed he heard his voice....

Two things here. First, in another thread you accused Christians of foolishly mis-interpreting their own Scriptures. I think you are going to have to suspend that claim if you are going to ignore some authors of that Scripture and not others.

Secondly, Paul says that Jesus is "in the form of God" and that "in Jesus the fullness of God dwells in bodily form"....John says Jesus is the "Only Begotten God (Son?) in the bosom of the Father" and that Jesus, is "the Word-God made flesh".

You are asking me to believe that the two authors have nothing similar in mind?

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

One does not have to be a theist to debate on a subject he or she understands.

No one is asking you to stop. But as I pointed out, you are using a theist's argument, not an atheist's argument. This is not a simple matter of say, highlighting one scripture to show a supposed contradiction with another. This is very different. But I suspect you are having trouble seeing why because you still don't 'get' the counter-argument, that is, you need to accept the fact that there is no absolute technical reason to accept one interpretation over the other, given that both interpretations use exactly the same scriptures to support their view. That is where a true atheist would come in and say that it is all false because what they are based on is false. You've admitted it yourself: "if I didn't tell you you'd think I was a theist". Thus you water down atheism and lift up the theists who have developed your arguments for you.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

You interpret everything in John according to what your opinion about Jesus' Deity already is...

I do not..........I did not nor do I start out by interpreting or believing that Yeshua is not God. This understanding is right there in the four gospels and most of it from himself....Yeshua does not inform his followers he's God nor can we find it in his teachings.

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

You like to point out that Jesus is a portrayed as a separate person, and I never disagreed.

I don't think I've ever said Yeshua was a "seperate person"....I could be wrong though. I think I've have maintained Yeshua and his god are "seperate".....I can't remember If I've ever said (person).

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

What we are talking about is the nature of Jesus. Where does he come from? What is his origin?

I agree that in the book of John those answers are right there but none of them have anything with Yeshua being God...rather his god sending him to earth with a task.

Where does he come from?
Yeshua said he came from heaven.....but not to come here to do his (own) seperate will but the will of his god that (sent) him.

What is his origin? What is his essence?
Yeshua said he existed and had glory (with) his god bfore his god created the world.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by rocketman

No one is asking you to stop. But as I pointed out, you are using a theist's argument, not an atheist's argument. This is not a simple matter of say, highlighting one scripture to show a supposed contradiction with another. This is very different.

You can interpret it how you like. For me...and I can only speak for me...it's not a theistic argument. I'm not arguing this from a theistic point of view. As I have studied these gospels I can find no where in them where Yeshua said he was God nor any place where he taught his disciples he was God. That's theological not theistic.

Originally Posted by rocketman

But I suspect you are having trouble seeing why because you still don't 'get' the counter-argument, that is, you need to accept the fact that there is no absolute technical reason to accept one interpretation over the other, given that both interpretations use exactly the same scriptures to support their view.

We are involved in a circular argument. We are 466 and counting post...into this. Where do you suppose it will stop? I have no problem agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.