Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[Ronald]

There was no Life Giving Savior except in the word of the Lord until Mariam gave birth to the son of God.
God says "I am your Yeshua." But never does Yeshua say he is your God. Precept of man.
God never gave man an impossible job. If only God can keep the commandments as you say, then God did play a trick on Israel.
My bible says God is Just! If he was unjust to Israel, what makes you believe he will be just with you.
The Messiah is the word of God, the word made flesh and dwelt among us. Yeshua is the name of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The vehicle of salvation from God.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Not, in fact, according to the Trinitarian interpretation. The Word becomes flesh- becomes a man to men, for men. He who lives for the Father takes up the human fabric and does not look away from the Father so that man can look to the Father through him with and in him (to use a prayer from our Liturgy).

In Christ human beings are offered a share in this dynamic of love that occurs within God. God is communion. God is life. God is continual giving, outpouring and receiving. God is love. Through Him who has become human for us, we enter into his life prayer which is the prayer par excellence- that is, we enter into his eternal communion with the Father.

That's why trintarianism is illogical and makes an individual grab on to superstition rather than rational thought.

"In order to find truth we must give up our prejudices, our own small trivial notions; an open receptive mind is essential. If our chalice is full of self, there is no room in it for the water of life. The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles in the path towards unity, and unity is necessary if we would reach truth, for truth is one. Therefore it is imperative that we should renounce our own particular prejudices and superstitions if we earnestly desire to seek the truth. Unless we make a distinction in our minds between dogma, superstition and prejudice on the one hand, and truth on the other, we cannot succeed. When we are in earnest in our search for anything we look for it everywhere. This principle we must carry out in our search for truth. Science must be accepted. No one truth can contradict another truth. Light is good in whatsoever lamp it is burning! "
~ Abdu'l Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 136-137.

Regards,

Scott

[Jordan St. Francis]

Popeyesays
That's why trintarianism is illogical and makes an individual grab on to superstition rather than rational thought.

This coming from a system that tries to hold all religions in its head simultaneously?

I'm sorry, but Bahai is plagued with far more hermeneutical difficulties than is the Trinity.

If you are interested, you can read this post, discussing how the Trinity richly fleshes out the biblical statement that "God is love" and, in fact, provides us with a profound basis for our evaluation of the human person and society:
Jesus: God or not? (Christians only)

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

This coming from a system that tries to hold all religions in its head simultaneously?

I'm sorry, but Bahai is plagued with far more hermeneutical difficulties than is the Trinity.

If you are interested, you can read this post, discussing how the Trinity richly fleshes out the biblical statement that "God is love" and, in fact, provides us with a profound basis for our evaluation of the human person and society:
Jesus: God or not? (Christians only)

Read that . . . still unimpressive.

God gave us our rational spirit which distinguish us from the animal which is ruled by instinct. Science is a way to explore the truth. It cannot be suppressed as youy would have it.
"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names--the human spirit and the rational soul--designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets. But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp."
~ Abdu'l Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209.

Dividing the Indivisible, or multiplying that which is already infinite is counter - rational.

Regards,

Scott

Regards,
Scott

[Jordan St. Francis]

Seeing you are in some sense a religious person, I think you would agree that science does not have the final word. There is a mystery to life, creation and human existence that can not be accessed by empirical methods and even has its locus beyond the peripheral of reason.

I am not an irrational or superstitious person. Yes, I believe in the Most Holy Trinity: that God subsists as one being in three persons. That he is communion and love itself. As I said, love is the initial principle behind creation. It did not begin with creation, God is love. God does not love himself in the narcissistic sense, but rather it arises out of the trinitarian dynamic of his being. Love only subsists in relationships and in God is itself the supreme "relational" event. It is on this account, the fact that we are imaged in Him, that we can get a glimpse into that human imperative to love and to be open to the other. Human persons, being in the image of God, necessarily find themselves reaching out and building society- why? Because God is in himself a society in its most essential sense. Thus all our work in the "human order" is really an attempt to properly reflect what is occurring in the "divine order".

In the final analysis, God is too great for his nature or being to really be discovered by rational or scientific means. Our rational souls can not contain what he is. We know his nature, and believe it, on account of God's own self-revelation. We accept it on faith.

Faith purifies and uplifts reason, and the two co-operate together to lead us into truth, for

"faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves"

Yet...

Yet the positive results achieved [through rational investigation] must not obscure the fact that reason, in its one-sided concern to investigate human subjectivity, seems to have forgotten that men and women are always called to direct their steps towards a truth which transcends them. Sundered from that truth, individuals are at the mercy of caprice, and their state as person ends up being judged by pragmatic criteria based essentially upon experimental data, in the mistaken belief that technology must dominate all. It has happened therefore that reason, rather than voicing the human orientation towards truth, has wilted under the weight of so much knowledge and little by little has lost the capacity to lift its gaze to the heights, not daring to rise to the truth of being

Underlying all the Church's thinking is the awareness that she is the bearer of a message which has its origin in God himself (cf. 2 Cor 4:1-2). The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith (cf. 1 Th 2:13). At the origin of our life of faith there is an encounter, unique in kind, which discloses a mystery hidden for long ages (cf. 1 Cor 2:7; Rom 16:25-26) but which is now revealed: “In his goodness and wisdom, God chose to reveal himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of his will (cf. Eph 1:9), by which, through Christ, the Word made flesh, man has access to the Father in the Holy Spirit and comes to share in the divine nature”.5 This initiative is utterly gratuitous, moving from God to men and women in order to bring them to salvation. As the source of love, God desires to make himself known; and the knowledge which the human being has of God perfects all that the human mind can know of the meaning of life.

(John Paul II, Fides et Ratio. Papal Encyclical) Fides et ratio - Ioannes Paulus PP. II - Encyclical Letter (1998.09.14)

I would say that the Catholic Tradition is up to its neck in reason, but what it breathes in is the air of mystery. Reason does not, by its own momentum, lead us up into the depths of God. There is a divine silence so to speak which remains so unless God chooses to make his voice heard. In this sense he is not subject to rational inquiry nor is he open to empirical verification.

When that voice is heard, it demands above all the assent of faith that one might, with faith, pass into the true knowledge of his Creator.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Seeing you are in some sense a religious person, I think you would agree that science does not have the final word. There is a mystery to life, creation and human existence that can not be accessed by empirical methods and even has its locus beyond the peripheral of reason.

I am not an irrational or superstitious person. Yes, I believe in the Most Holy Trinity: that God subsists as one being in three persons. That he is communion and love itself. As I said, love is the initial principle behind creation. It did not begin with creation, God is love. God does not love himself in the narcissistic sense, but rather it arises out of the trinitarian dynamic of his being. Love only subsists in relationships and in God is itself the supreme "relational" event. It is on this account, the fact that we are imaged in Him, that we can get a glimpse into that human imperative to love and to be open to the other. Human persons, being in the image of God, necessarily find themselves reaching out and building society- why? Because God is in himself a society in its most essential sense. Thus all our work in the "human order" is really an attempt to properly reflect what is occurring in the "divine order".

In the final analysis, God is too great for his nature or being to really be discovered by rational or scientific means. Our rational souls can not contain what he is. We know his nature, and believe it, on account of God's own self-revelation. We accept it on faith.

Faith purifies and uplifts reason, and the two co-operate together to lead us into truth, for Yet...
(John Paul II, Fides et Ratio. Papal Encyclical) Fides et ratio - Ioannes Paulus PP. II - Encyclical Letter (1998.09.14)

I would say that the Catholic Tradition is up to its neck in reason, but what it breathes in is the air of mystery. Reason does not, by its own momentum, lead us up into the depths of God. There is a divine silence so to speak which remains so unless God chooses to make his voice heard. In this sense he is not subject to rational inquiry nor is he open to empirical verification.

When that voice is heard, it demands above all the assent of faith that one might, with faith, pass into the true knowledge of his Creator.

I was answering this til the system glitched and would not let me preview my post. When I got back to it, my work was gone . . . . typing through the labor of dealing with typing while recovering from a stroke has quite killed my enthusiasm for writing anymore this evening. I am really tired of this site eating posts for no good reason.

Regards,
Scott

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

can one really read the "I AM" statements of Jesus in the context of monotheistic Jewish faith and not conclude that Jesus is claiming an identity for himself that the Jews of his time understood to be appropriate only for God?:

Again, if one truly understood the context of that conversation he had with them....then they'd quickly get and understanding that he never meant he was God. Additionally they weren't just angry at him because that "I AM" statement. They were already mad at him way before he made that statement. He had already said that they wanted kill him and that was before he said that (i am). Even if they thought he was putting himself on the level with God....He did his best to clear their misconceptions and explain to them that he was mere the son of his god. Since we know God has plenty of "sons"....all he was telling them was he was one of those who was nearest and dearest to his god who existed before Abraham and before his gound made the world.

I thought you were headed off to do more research into that (I am) statement.....since the last we talked it only meant he (existed) before Abraham and/or before his god laid the foundation of the world.

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Does the Psalmist not exclaim: "the Lord is my Shepherd!"
Yet Jesus is "The Shepherd" and "The Lord"

This is not a proof of deity. First their were others in the scripture who bore the title "lord"....Just because you find it there in the bible does not mean it is only in reference to God. Lord was a title of respect. Kings went by it as well. He was also called "master" but it didn't mean he was God either. I have already established that in the last book Yeshua tells John he has a god. The book itself says that God is the god of Yeshua and since in that book Yeshua is called the (lamb) it is safe to say that God is his shepherd as well.

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Is it not God, and God alone, who is the true source of life as the Creator, the Savior of his people Israel? Saving them from the bondage of Egypt?

Yes and no. The bible says God is a saviour...yet he gives/sends saviours (2Kings 13:5, Isaiah 19:20)

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Is God not the Creator who created the world in six days, resting on the seventh, setting it aside, making it holy and turning it into the central cultic sign of his covenant with his People. Is it not the Lord of Creation who is properly Lord of the Day of Rest, thus Lord of the Sabbath?

Yet Jesus claims he is Lord of the Sabbath. (Mark and Matthew)

Actually what he said was "The son of man is lord/master on the sabbath".... I have had plenty of conversations with trinitarians and some research that I have done I am often told that when Yeshua is referring to himself as "Son of God"....it is to say God and he is talking about the divine side of him....but when he calls himself (Son of Man) he is speaking of his human side. So you can't have it both ways. Should we regard Ezekiel as God as well? He is referred to as "son of man"...I think 94 times in the OT. Even Daniel is referred to as "son of man".

Remember now....he wasn't the only one picking from the fields that day....his disciples were with him and they plucked because they all were hungry. Surly they weren't gods. He also proceeded to tell them about David who supposedly broke the law and went into the temple and ate the bread.....

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Doesn't the Psalmist cry out, "Lord let the body of your servant not see decay"? Did not the Pharisees and much of 2nd Temple Judaism await the resurrection when God would undo death?

Yet Christ claims he is The Resurrection (Gospel of John)

Any and all power he said he had..he said was given to him. So he didn't have it to begin with. In order to be given there must be a giver.

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

Does St. Paul not say in Philippians 2 that Jesus is "in the form of God"? That he took the form of man? That he descended from divinity to servitude? Does he not say in Colossians that " in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (2:9)?

Well, to me, Paul's opinions mean very little to me since he never met Yeshua...rather claimed he heard his voice....

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis

The impact of Christ can never been seen independently from the monotheistic faith of Israel and its treasured history of salvation. It receives its true grandeur only when it involves also a looking back, from Adam to Abraham, Moses and the Prophets. This is why the Christian Church keeps the Hebrew Scriptures. When we look to the faith of Israel- its central commitment to the One God we must remember that the authors of the New Testament believed they shared in this.

Well that's fine for you. I have no problem if this is what you believe.....but if you run the same rant by a Jewish Rabbi I'm quite sure he would not share the same view....