Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by emiliano

What of the rest, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?

Again, Revelation 3:12 answers this. If Yeshua is to be taken as God, as you asset, then the ascended Yeshua would not be telling John that he has a god. And further in the book the "Lamb"...., who is supposed to be Yeshua the Messiah, would not be taking or receiving the scroll from God if he (IS) God....It would have already been in his possession. The supposed prophecy in In Isaiah is applied to Yeshua by mistake. The prophecy was meant for a king in that day in time and that king would be a witness to the prophecy.

[Poisonshady313]

Originally Posted by emiliano

What of the rest, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?

That's a common Christian error in Hebrew grammar.

God, in all His glory and with all the titles that describe Him, will call the boy "Prince of Peace"

God is not the prince of peace. God will call the child "prince of peace".

[emiliano]

Nobody seems to look at this issue from the very foundation. Does it matter whether Jesus was God or not?

Well, it is very important cause it is our believe that “God Saves” so if Jesus lied when He says I am the way, I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am, I am….. (Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you) We would be lost and our faith nulled.

If he was, than he disappeared and it was as if he never was to begin with. If he was not, than nothing else changes either. Even with the book, there is not a clear answer.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. The first cause, the uncaused cause.

[emiliano]

Who is the suffering Servant of Isaiah Prophecy? Hezekiah?

[Poisonshady313]

Originally Posted by emiliano

Who is the suffering Servant of Isaiah Prophecy? Hezekiah?

The suffering servant is Israel.


Throughout Isaiah, Israel is spoken of as a singular person

[emiliano]

Yes I heard that one, there are other that says that it is the Gentiles
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
To whom indeed?

[emiliano]

Originally Posted by crystalonyx

Sorry, "bandwagon" theories don't cut it with me. Milllions of people got on board in Hitler's extermination of the Jews, does that make it right?

CHristianinity was just the cult that won out, and was carried on thru tradition, that's all, it's tales have no more validity than any other religion's and it is arrogant to suggest otherwise.

We are talking billions, do you know what a delusion is? Atheist are tiny minority that maintain a believe that billions do not share.

Consider that Christianity started with 12 men and their master, there has to be a reason for it expansion, Nazism is almost dead after 60 years, any idea why is it so? It is hard for us not to be sure of what we believe after all the sole fact that it survived against all odds it’s a miracle. Also consider Christianity universal acceptance, there are Christian in all parts of the world, so the fact that it doesn’t cut it for you is of little consequence, what do you think? Arrogant? It is hard not to be, we won out didn’t we?

[logician]

Originally Posted by emiliano

We are talking billions, do you know what a delusion is? Atheist are tiny minority that maintain a believe that billions do not share.

Consider that Christianity started with 12 men and their master, there has to be a reason for it expansion, Nazism is almost dead after 60 years, any idea why is it so? It is hard for us not to be sure of what we believe after all the sole fact that it survived against all odds it’s a miracle. Also consider Christianity universal acceptance, there are Christian in all parts of the world, so the fact that it doesn’t cut it for you is of little consequence, what do you think? Arrogant? It is hard not to be, we won out didn’t we?

Case closed.

[Poisonshady313]

Originally Posted by emiliano

Yes I heard that one, there are other that says that it is the Gentiles
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
To whom indeed?

1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
Who would have believed our reportSo will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
the arm of the Lord like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?


2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
And he came up like a sapling before itThis people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.Religious Education Forum - Reply to Topic
and like a root he came up from dry land.
neither form had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.
and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?
Now shall we desire him?This is a question.


3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
Despised and rejected by menwas he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
and as one who hides his face from us Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.


4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
Indeed, he bore our illnessesHeb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.


5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
the chastisement of our welfare was upon him The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.

Basically, Isaiah 53 is the exclamation of the nations when they look upon Israel when it is redeemed with awe and wonder, realizing what they did to Israel was wrong.

"We" are the nations. He is Israel.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation The years that passed over him.
who shall tell? The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.