Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Muffled

You didn't prove He was wrong only that you disagreed with him.

He attempted to become a translator using a lexicon in which he was not qualified to do. Not only did he show a lack of understanding of the language but he showed he knew very little of the Quran itself. He attempted to push out scholars in which he said agreed with him so I went and got that scholars rendering of the Quran and it totally disagreed with him. This scholar he cited and wanted to use also used the same lexicon he was using. So Apple Pie found himself in a pickle. How could he get out of it? There was nothing left for him to do but leave. I found him at another forum and confronted him there as well. The scholar he used was not a muslim so he wasn't translating with bias. When he translated that verse he puts an exclamation mark. Apple Pie began to question me as to why I wanted to rely on that scholar and thought that I should show that scholars exegesis process. I found him, Apple Pie, to now be in a interesting position. This was originally one of his cited and quoted scholars and now, all of a sudden, this scholar disagrees with his interpretation so now this scholar is suspect. As you can see.....he is here no more. Maybe one day he will come back....sounding like a broken record...

Originally Posted by Muffled

Solomon was a sinner also and David and Israel (Jacob) and Abraham.

Interesting.

2 Samuel 12:7-8
12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

God gave david many wives from Saul.


Deut: 21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

So far I don't see there being a problem if your god set it in motion.Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines (2Chro. 11:21). This line in Judah may have been the origin of the Talmudic limitation of the eighteen wives to the king. The father of the Prophet Samuel had two wives (1Sam. 1:2). The sons of Issachar are recorded as having many wives and sons (1Chro. 7:4). We also find it is far back as in Genesis Lamech had wives Gen. 4:23. It goes on and on. I can understand why some christians point out Muhammed having multiple wives. One reason is because that practice ended.....maybe by the christian church. And there is nothing wrong with that. The Quran allows up top four wives but says if you can't do justice by all of them then only have one.

Originally Posted by Muffled

Christianity provides me with a closer relationship with God and saves me from sin. Islam and Judaism are "faith of Abraham" religions and God says that can work for some people and Mohammed was one of those people but it never worked that well for me (RE: faith of Abraham within Christianity).

Noted. No problem here. It was just a question I had and you answered quite well. I may not agree with concepts and traditions but all is good.

Originally Posted by Muffled

Obviously that is your opinion but not mine.

No....! It's not an opinion. It's the truth. I know the Quran backward and forward and there are no verses that agree with the christian idea of Yeshua. The quran says explicitly, not "implicityly", that God has no partners, no wife, no "children"....It flat out warns against the people saying God is three and no where in the quran does it show that Yeshua is God. If you believe any of this is there then produce your sura and ayat (chapter and verse).

Originally Posted by Muffled

That has already happened. However on parting my Christian brothers did not disown me but weren't able to agree and that dissension made it difficult for us to work together. It is sort of a Paul and Barnabus thing. As far as I know I walk alone. I have never met anyone else with a similar belief. Even converts from Islam tend to disown the Qu'ran which I consider unnecessary and as far as I am concerned since Messianic Christians can worship like Jews why shouldn't an Islamic Christian be able to worship like a Muslim.

No problem with me. I think people should be able to worship in which ever fasion they choose.... It doesn't bother me.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Video3

I'd like to take up a few points raised by joeboonda.
He asks if we have ever read Isaiah 53. Why just 53? Why not 52 13-15 where the chapter actually starts? Who is the servant referred to in the book of Isaiah? If you had bothered to read the previous chapters you'kll see that G-d is referring to the righteous remnant of Israel. Please do not quote bit of the bible out of context.
Also the so called 300m prophecies that you say Jesus fulfilled. You can only arrive at this through circular reasoning, i.e. these are about the Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah therefore it must be about Jesus. WRONG Most of these are not prphecies at all simply verses taken out of context or mistranslated or simply made up. If we look at the Messianic prophecies that are exhaustive and exclusive, e.g. world peace, the rebuilding of the temple, the ingathering of ALL the exiles, universal knowledge of G-d we see that Jesus did not fulfil a single one of these. Also, there is NO reference in the Hebrew scriptures to the Messiah having to return to fulfil the messianic prophecies.
At the end of the day there is the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian scriptures and they are diametrically opposed. As Jews we can only believe in one G-d who never has and never will have any human form.
Let's face it when the authors of the New Testament wrote their gospels it was a simple thing to create a story around a so called prophecy. It's so easy to to be wise after the event. To quote RG Price, Jesus is a veyy Jewish Myth. Mark wrote the first Gospel and Mattherw and Luke copied large chunks from Mark with additional sources of their own. How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?

First let me say welcome.......

I left frubals for you.....

It's nice to see some one here from the Jewish side.

I have a question. What kind of Messiah are the Jews waiting on?

[uss_bigd]

See this link...

The Great Differences of Christ and Man « Eliseo Soriano

[logician]

"How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?"

A point I've made many times, it seems the believers don't really care if the stories don't jive, strong evidence that a single text was used as a reference (Mark) and extrapolated on from their own perspective when they wrote their fictitious additions.

[Popeyesays]

Wiki:
The formal study of eyewitness memory is usually undertaken within the broader category of cognitive processes. Cognitive processes refer to all the different ways in which we make sense of the world around us. We do this by employing the mental skills at our disposal such as thinking, perception, memory, awareness, reasoning and judgment.
Although cognitive processes can only be inferred and cannot be seen directly, they all have very important practical implications within a legal context.
If one were to accept that the way we think, perceive, reason and judge is not always perfect, then it becomes easier to understand why cognitive processes and the factors influencing these processes are studied by psychologists in matters of law; not least because of the grave implications that this imperfection can have within the criminal justice system.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by logician

"How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?"

A point I've made many times, it seems the believers don't really care if the stories don't jive, strong evidence that a single text was used as a reference (Mark) and extrapolated on from their own perspective when they wrote their fictitious additions.

On the contrary there is a massive amount of agreement in the four gospels. However it does not surprise me that God provided four gospels to provide us with different points of view.

[logician]

Originally Posted by Muffled

On the contrary there is a massive amount of agreement in the four gospels. However it does not surprise me that God provided four gospels to provide us with different points of view.

Considering that Matthew and Luke were essentially taken from Mark, the number of disagreements is extraordinary.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by logician

Considering that Matthew and Luke were essentially taken from Mark, the number of disagreements is extraordinary.

There is no Biblical evidence suggesting that Matthew and Luke were taken from Mark and there is evidence to the contrary. I don't accept the concept of arguing that the books were taken from Mark because they have things in common. It is logical to me that different apostles would have common experiences since they were all with Jesus.

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by Muffled

There is no Biblical evidence suggesting that Matthew and Luke were taken from Mark and there is evidence to the contrary. I don't accept the concept of arguing that the books were taken from Mark because they have things in common. It is logical to me that different apostles would have common experiences since they were all with Jesus.

Well put, frubals!