Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Once again you used Jesus's recognition of the God-head as evidence of Jesus not being God. Jesus is a subordinate of the Father, but shares the authority and God would not give all authority to someone who was just a man. Jesus had to be God to be given this lofty title.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding.

Here's my post in reply to you Jesus is God?

That other stuff in the middle was not mine and I don't know where it came from. My position is Yeshua is not God nor did he claim to be nor did he teach his followers he was. John 17:3 gives us the information he wasn't but in all reality the whole of John 17 can not be attributed to Yeshua being God. He shows that he is the servant and bringer of the message that his god tasked him with doing. As he he prays to his god he asks god to make all of his followers one in purpose with him as he is one in purpose with his god so that they all may become one in purpose (doing God's will).


Your own reasoning above makes no sense.

Everyone keeps saying (Father this and Father that) when talking about Yeshua. You say it as though God is above and separate from God but oh yea...Jesus is god too.

The "Father" IS God. This is what Yeshua said. So if Yeshua was subordinate "TO" GOD then he, Yeshua, WAS NOT GOD....

John 8:54-55
54 Jesus answered, "If I am merely boasting about myself, it doesn't count. But it is my Father who says these glorious things about me. You say, `He is our God,'

55 but you do not even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But it is true--I know him and obey him.


Subordinate
1.
placed in or belonging to a lower order or rank.

2.
of less importance; secondary.

3.
subject to or under the authority of a superior.

4.
subservient or inferior.

5.
subject; dependent.


God was subrdniate to himself?

God shares authority with God?

Yeshua was God because he gave himself authority?


If Yeshua was suborniante to then he was not the master (God).
If he has to (share) authority then there is some one besdies him with power.
In order to be given there must be a giver.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Thomas said in responding to Jesus:

John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."

Sorry. Most theologians and scholars are rendering this verse with an exclamation mark at the end to show that this doubting Thomas was suprised to find his beloved friend and teacher (alive).

RSV Bible
John 20:28
"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Revised Standard Version of the Bible (R.S.V.) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

Sorry. Most theologians and scholars are rendering this verse with an exclamation mark at the end to show that this doubting Thomas was suprised to find his beloved friend and teacher (alive).

RSV Bible
John 20:28
"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Revised Standard Version of the Bible (R.S.V.) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations

Gee, prove your claim or interpretation of biblical information by biblical information.


Let us read John 20:24-30 and let us examine what happened before the meeting between Christ and Thomas.

John 20:24-25

"Now Thomas , one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

Thomas made a condition for believing " "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

John 20:26-27

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas,"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas made those conditions, and Jesus gave it to him. why would he be surprised for getting something he required? besides, Jesus said, "stop doubting and believe"
so, Thomas did just that and declared his statement of faith.

John 20:28

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Again, Jesus said ""stop doubting and believe" thomas replied ""My Lord and my God!"

The context ofthe story clearly states, Thomas' statement as a declaration of faith. look at what Jesus said on verse 29-30

John 20:29-31

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."


The statement underlined clearly means Jesus was acknowldeging Thomas' statement of faith. therefore Jesus implicitly acknowledged he was in the status of a God. furthermore, the verse stated that ' But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

"The son of God"

The lion has cubs, human has babys and humans cannot bear lion cubs can they?

God's begotten son, must be God as well.

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Gee, prove your claim or interpretation of biblical information by biblical information.


Let us read John 20:24-30 and let us examine what happened before the meeting between Christ and Thomas.

John 20:24-25

"Now Thomas , one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

Thomas made a condition for believing " "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

John 20:26-27

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas,"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas made those conditions, and Jesus gave it to him. why would he be surprised for getting something he required? besides, Jesus said, "stop doubting and believe"
so, Thomas did just that and declared his statement of faith.

John 20:28

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Again, Jesus said ""stop doubting and believe" thomas replied ""My Lord and my God!"

The context ofthe story clearly states, Thomas' statement as a declaration of faith. look at what Jesus said on verse 29-30

John 20:29-31

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."


The statement underlined clearly means Jesus was acknowldeging Thomas' statement of faith. therefore Jesus implicitly acknowledged he was in the status of a God. furthermore, the verse stated that ' But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

"The son of God"

The lion has cubs, human has babys and humans cannot bear lion cubs can they?

God's begotten son, must be God as well.

BRAVO BRAVO !!!!

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

"The son of God"

The lion has cubs, human has babys and humans cannot bear lion cubs can they?

God's begotten son, must be God as well.

Interesting.....So Yeshua is a lesser God now?

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

Interesting.....So Yeshua is a lesser God now?

Do you mean lesser than the Father? Let us ask Jesus himself

John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Gee, prove your claim or interpretation of biblical information by biblical information.
a and

Well it's nice to see christians get together and make corrections to the scriptures. It was King James who didn't realize it was a statement of excitement but these scholars and theologians understood it quite well. They weren't the only ones

And to piggy back off what you said....Thomas was not with them and he was not prepared to believe that Yeshua was (alive) until he saw Yeshua and was able to touch him.

So when he "saw".....(key word) he was excited and made that exclamation, you know...like saying...(oh my god!). He just phrased a different way.


29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

It had everything to do with him being alive and not dead. Thomas thought he was dead and did not believe the brothers when told him they saw him and he's alive

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Do you mean lesser than the Father? Let us ask Jesus himself

John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Well, I know the scripture....just trying trying to get your understanding. But you just proved my point. Yeshua was not God because God was greater than him.