Jesus is God? (Messiah, HaShem, crucifixion, Kingdom, Jehovah)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason
Yes, It was god's plan for Jesus to die and he did..

Originally Posted by crystalonyx

And what makes you so special that you know the mind of a supposed god?

And as we can see he can't combine the two in his mind believeing that they are one god because he says....God planned for Jesus to die....

It would appear that trinitarians are confused on trinity....

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

So are we to assume all of God's prophets are God incarnate as well?

Read the book of Haggai...and one thing you will notice is Haggai brings the word of God and appears to speak as though it is God speaking...Can we conclude that Haagai is God incarnate?

There is no evidence that any of the prophets or Mohammed were anything but men inspired by God. As men they were sinners: Moses lacked faith in God and struck the rock to make water come out; Mohammed had multiple wives; Jeremiah was depressed; Elijah was afraid of his enemies.

There is no evidence that Haggai was God incarnate. This is how the word of God was spoken by Haggai:
Hag. 1:1 ¶ In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of Jehovah by Haggai...

However Jesus is the Word become flesh. What is the difference? There is hardly any difference as the Qu'ran states "all the messengers are equal." It doesn't matter who speaks the Word as long as it is the Word. The reason God became incarnate was not to provide another messenger (albeit there was a dearth of prophets in His time) but to die on the cross as a demonstration of how much He loves us. If He got a prophet to die on the cross there is no personal involvement on his part so there is no guarantee that He loves you. He could only do it Himself. No-one else can take the place of God.

[crystalonyx]

The idea of a god sacrificing himself was not new to Christianity, in fact, Christianity borrowed the story almost verbatim from earlier religions, just adding its own inflections. All these stories were NOT meant to be taken literally, but figuratively, unfortunately, Christianity literalized the tale to use as a cudgel to gain believers by promising the impossible - eternal life(if you believe), or eternal suffering(if you don't).

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Muffled

There is no evidence that any of the prophets or Mohammed were anything but men inspired by God.

And yet you still profess Yeshua to be more than that even though there is no evidence in the 4 gospels from Yeshua to confirm your assertions.

Originally Posted by Muffled

As men they were sinners: Mohammed had multiple wives

Look I have charged that you and christians like you don't know your own scripture. What's the point of making the statement of Muhammed having multiple wives??????

Wasn't it Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines (girlfriends - mistresses)???????......The wives Muhammed had couldn't even hold a candle to Solomon.....

1Kings 11:3
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines:....

Look, I can quote Quran all day with the best of them....but since the Quran is totally against what you believe (trinity, Yeshua is God, crucifixion, God has a son) there is no need for you to throw Muhammed's name out there. Additionally, we should stick with the bible since the original question was asked by a christian.

Stick to your own scripture before you start throwing some one else's under the bus...and for the record....I'm not a muslim......

Originally Posted by Muffled

There is no evidence that Haggai was God incarnate. This is how the word of God was spoken by Haggai:
Hag. 1:1 ¶ In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of Jehovah by Haggai...

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It was the prophet John (The Baptist) that says the same thing about Yeshua and It was Yeshua who confirmed what John (The Baptist) said about him.

John 3:34 (From John - The Baptist)
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.


John 12:49 (Jesus)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


John 17:4 and 17:14 (From Yeshua - His prayer to his god)
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

Originally Posted by Muffled

The reason God became incarnate was not to provide another messenger (albeit there was a dearth of prophets in His time) but to die on the cross as a demonstration of how much He loves us.

You still haven't proven that God became a man. Crucifixion is a subject for another time but I do find it illogical to think that God committed an act of suicide for its creation. See, you have given your god human emotions.....You make it appear as though your god could not possibly understand its creation or love it, even though your god created love, but had to come and die for it in order to prove it. Interesting that the world is in worst shape today than it was 2000 years ago....So what did your god actually accomplish?

Originally Posted by Muffled

If He got a prophet to die on the cross there is no personal involvement on his part so there is no guarantee that He loves you. He could only do it Himself. No-one else can take the place of God.

This is so contradictory to scripture. You are responsible for your own actions....

Ezekiel 18:20-22
20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die.

22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.


Be responsible for your own actions.....This blood sacrifice you speak of when it comes to Yeshua was not even needed. Again, crucifixion (fiction)....is a debate for a different thread.....

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by crystalonyx

And what makes you so special that you know the mind of a supposed god?

As I've stated before, no completely know all the nuances of God, however the Bible gives us an abundant amount of information about their character and purpose.

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Saying "God IS {insert adjective here**" is always true and always insufficient. God is much more than we can describe. Jesus is more than we can describe, but we can get far closer to describing Jesus than we can God. You need to look up the definition of "Divine" 1 a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity <the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>2 a: supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b: heavenly, godlike — di·vine·ly adverb By the way, the "Divine Savior" is God, not Jesus. Jesus is an instrumentality of God. To be exact: Main Entry: in·stru·men·tal·i·ty Pronunciation: \ˌin(t)-strə-mən-ˈta-lə-tē, -ˌmen-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural in·stru·men·tal·i·ties Date: 1651 1 : the quality or state of being instrumental 2 : means, agency The Shema! is explicit and Jesus never disobeyed the Shema! Regards, Scott

It's funny you should give the definition of "Divine" and only use the definitions that apply to your position. Clearly, the definition you gave illustrates my position as well. (read the bold print) A deity is a god and they even capitalized Savior implying that the savior is God. The only thing that can atone for sin was the blood of a pure sacrifice. The only pure thing Biblically is God. Sorry Scott, you conclusion is unbiblical.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

It's funny you should give the definition of "Divine" and only use the definitions that apply to your position. Clearly, the definition you gave illustrates my position as well. (read the bold print) A deity is a god and they even capitalized Savior implying that the savior is God. The only thing that can atone for sin was the blood of a pure sacrifice. The only pure thing Biblically is God. Sorry Scott, you conclusion is unbiblical.

Being a diety is being God. Jesus never claimed to BE God. Obviously He knew best. He never spoke but as His Father instructed Him to speak. He never claimed to BE God. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

By the way God is the Divine Savior, Jesus is His instrumentality.

You can repeat yourself over and over and it will not convince anyone who didn't already have their minds made up.

Regards,
Scott

[Jeremy Mason]

OK Scott, we'll agree to disagree.