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  #211  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason View Post
If Jesus was just a man/ messiah then how could he have existed before Abraham?
Be careful. You're not accurately quoting me. Where in that post did I say Yeshua was "just a man/messiah"?????
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  #212  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason View Post
It wasn't the blood of bulls or lambs that God truly wanted. The blood of the lamb symbolized what Jesus did on the cross. The God of the Bible says that only purity can wash away or atone for sin which is why Jesus had to die so that the sins of the world could be wiped away.

Muhammed never acknowledge Jesus's atonement.
That's a firm opinion. Your supposition is that God would have Him die? But it was men who did the deed, and those men had the option NOT to do so. If Jesus had not died on the cross but been upraised by the people of Palestine as the Messiah, would that not have served to provide atonement? Would it have made Jesus LESS sinless?

Muhammed was the Temple of Man in His turn, and He upheld Jesus as an Apostle of God no less than Himself. Jesus was the Temple of Man in His turn and He upheld Moses as no less than Himself.

Regards,
Sott
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  #213  
Old 04-07-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin View Post
Be careful. You're not accurately quoting me. Where in that post did I say Yeshua was "just a man/messiah"?????
Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.
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  #214  
Old 04-07-2008, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Popeyesays View Post
That's a firm opinion. Your supposition is that God would have Him die? But it was men who did the deed, and those men had the option NOT to do so. If Jesus had not died on the cross but been upraised by the people of Palestine as the Messiah, would that not have served to provide atonement? Would it have made Jesus LESS sinless?

Muhammed was the Temple of Man in His turn, and He upheld Jesus as an Apostle of God no less than Himself. Jesus was the Temple of Man in His turn and He upheld Moses as no less than Himself.

Regards,
Sott
Yes, It was god's plan for Jesus to die and he did. Yes, people had the option and God knew that they would kill him well before they did, therefore providing the atonement. It would not have made Jesus less sinless how would it have?

As far as Muhammed I completely disagree. I believe he was an imposter(sp?).
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  #215  
Old 04-07-2008, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason View Post
Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.
Actually Penguin has maintrained that Jesus' nature is divine, but that Jesus' nature is not to be God.

I agree.

Regards,
Scott
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  #216  
Old 04-08-2008, 07:25 AM
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Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.
As Popeyesays...I maintain he was not God...

Yeshua's own statements prove that. There is NO implicit or explicit statement you can bring me out of the four gospels to show Yeshua was God. This is not something he taught his followers nor did they believe he was such. Martha, regarding Lazarus, said to him..."I know that whatever you ask of God HE will give it to YOU"....Do we pass her statement off as....(OH...Poor mis informed Martha...Poor Martha...she misunderstood who God was).....???? NO! She knew exactly who Yeshua was. There was no need for him to correct her in saying...."NO...I am the lord your god".....

We have (EXPLICIT) statements in those scripture to show he was not God. Whenever a man tells you he has been sent you must believe there must be a sender. Whenever a man tells you he was given you must believe there must be a giver. Most christians I have come across have passed these types of statements off.

If I showed up at your door and told you I was sent to sell you something...you wouldn't assume I am the same person that sent me. How illogical is that kind of reasoning? You would rightfully ask...."Who sent you?.....Who do you work for?"......

These are the same kinds of questions the jews posed to Yeshua. If I sat in front of you with a briefcase full of money and said to you..."This money was given to me by my father"....You would not come to the illogical conclusion that I am my father nor would you assume I gave it to myself......You would ask..."Who is your father?"......"Who gave that money to you?".....This is the situation with the jews to Yeshua. They, for the most part, did not take him as God. When there was a time when some did....Yeshua cleared it up informing them of their misconceptions he wasn't God.

Yeshua even leaves information that even before coming here he, while in heaven, had his own will and he existed separate from God. It's all right there in those scriptures. Nowhere in those books does Yeshua say he is God. Nowhere in any of the four gospels does he teach he is God.

As I have said....John 17:3 is one of the clearest statements declaring his position. In his prayer to his god he says "YOU are the true god, I am the messiah (blessed one who speaks for you, on your behalf), whom YOU have sent".....

If anyone takes from that statement or even the rest of John 17 that he, Yeshua, is God then they don't understand the scripture they purport to know.
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  #217  
Old 04-09-2008, 03:08 AM
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So Scott is right and you believe that Jesus was divine? But not God. ok.

Yes Jesus behaved in a way that all men and women should behave towards the Father with humility and respect. Just because Jesus calls the Father "my God" doesn't eliminate him form the equation of God and I can find no satisfying Scripture to validate the notion either. I see where you are coming from... I do.

Divine is perfection and perfection is God.
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  #218  
Old 04-09-2008, 06:05 AM
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So Scott is right and you believe that Jesus was divine? But not God. ok.

Yes Jesus behaved in a way that all men and women should behave towards the Father with humility and respect. Just because Jesus calls the Father "my God" doesn't eliminate him form the equation of God and I can find no satisfying Scripture to validate the notion either. I see where you are coming from... I do.

Divine is perfection and perfection is God.
Saying "God IS {insert adjective here**" is always true and always insufficient. God is much more than we can describe. Jesus is more than we can describe, but we can get far closer to describing Jesus than we can God.

You need to look up the definition of "Divine"
1 a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity <the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>2 a: supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b: heavenly, godlike
— di·vine·ly adverb

By the way, the "Divine Savior" is God, not Jesus. Jesus is an instrumentality of God.

To be exact:
Main Entry: in·stru·men·tal·i·ty Pronunciation: \ˌin(t)-strə-mən-ˈta-lə-tē, -ˌmen-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural in·stru·men·tal·i·ties Date: 1651 1 : the quality or state of being instrumental 2 : means, agency

The Shema! is explicit and Jesus never disobeyed the Shema!

Regards,
Scott
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