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  #101  
Old 03-31-2008, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by uss_bigd View Post
how does verse 31 imply that Christ is not God?
If John had meant to claim Jesus is God, he would have. However, he said Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah. The Messiah is not God, and the Son of God is not God.

Regards,
Scott
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  #102  
Old 03-31-2008, 01:12 AM
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'three "personalities" doesn't mean three Gods.'

Then it must mean one God with multiple personalities - a medical disorder.
Unfortunately scripture doesn't back you up, as the personal pronoun 'I' is used, not 'we', as in:

"I am the Lord thy God.'

Which is found all the way through the Bible.

as opposed to:

'We are the Lord thy God and I am my own Son and my Son is his own Father'.

Which is complete piffle!

'you are comprised of a soul spirit and body. 3 completely different things but one person.

There is only one ME. As far as I can tell, I have only one personality! My soul isn't a me, talking to my body, who's chatting away to my spirit. That's absurd.

My soul is me - my life. It's the 'real' me which, after my body dies, goes to Heaven to be with my Father in a glorified body:

2 Corinthians 5: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

My spirit is also me - it's my five senses and my imagination, my conscience etc. It was given to me at my birth and goes back to God when I die.

My body is the vessel of flesh that my soul built itself inside my mother's womb.


'no one can fully understand and or explain the trinity just like many other things'.

I'd agree with you there! It's difficult to explain something biblically when the bible doesn't back it up, and people have a very hard time grasping how the Father and Son can be the same person, but not, and both be God yet not TWO Gods, but only one God - and the Holy Spirit is some 'other' person.So either you can't read, can't count, or use your common sense.
Last edited by CDB; 03-31-2008 at 01:15 AM.
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  #103  
Old 03-31-2008, 04:53 AM
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John 20:30
To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

and I will keep restating, there is no trinity, the bible doesn't back it up and it doesn't make any sense, plus the fact that it was introduced into the catholic religion, to get Pagans in and supporting them, so the Catholics in the days of the foundation of the church added some of those beliefs to make the Pagan happy to joni them!

It is not from God, the belief in the trinity.
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  #104  
Old 03-31-2008, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason View Post
Jesus said that he existed before Abraham. what was he if he could do that?
The first expression of the Creator's will.

Regards,
Scott
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  #105  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Popeyesays View Post
If John had meant to claim Jesus is God, he would have. However, he said Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah. The Messiah is not God, and the Son of God is not God.

Regards,
Scott
You need to read my OP in: "Is Jesus God in the Flesh" under Religious Debates. I refer there to the Messianic statement in Isaiah that the Messiah is the Everlasting Father (God) and the Prince of Peace (Jesus). For good measure the Paraclete is included as "The wonderful Counselor."

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah:
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
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  #106  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CDB View Post
'three "personalities" doesn't mean three Gods.'

Then it must mean one God with multiple personalities - a medical disorder.
Unfortunately scripture doesn't back you up, as the personal pronoun 'I' is used, not 'we', as in:

"I am the Lord thy God.'

Which is found all the way through the Bible.

as opposed to:

'We are the Lord thy God and I am my own Son and my Son is his own Father'.

Which is complete piffle!

'you are comprised of a soul spirit and body. 3 completely different things but one person.

There is only one ME. As far as I can tell, I have only one personality! My soul isn't a me, talking to my body, who's chatting away to my spirit. That's absurd.
My soul is me - my life. It's the 'real' me which, after my body dies, goes to Heaven to be with my Father in a glorified body:

2 Corinthians 5: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

My spirit is also me - it's my five senses and my imagination, my conscience etc. It was given to me at my birth and goes back to God when I die.

My body is the vessel of flesh that my soul built itself inside my mother's womb.


'no one can fully understand and or explain the trinity just like many other things'.

I'd agree with you there! It's difficult to explain something biblically when the bible doesn't back it up, and people have a very hard time grasping how the Father and Son can be the same person, but not, and both be God yet not TWO Gods, but only one God - and the Holy Spirit is some 'other' person.So either you can't read, can't count, or use your common sense.
i love it Hilarious

are you sure that is the right scripture? can you please quote the full one thanks. but the tabernacle was the part of the Hebrew church or chapel or whatever it was, that only the high priests could enter, where Jehovahs spirit dwelt,. It sounds as though the people talking there are those that are part of the 144 000. the go to heaven, but have a special place set aside for them.
But I cant be sure of who is talkin there (although it is on of the apostles who are part of the 144 000) because I can not find anything to do with that Scripture at 2 corinthains at all or 1 corinthians 5, so like I said, so i can be sure can you let me know where it was you found that scripture. Thanks

The biblical term for "soul" is life. Your soul is your Life and it return to Jehovah when you die, and when the resurrection occurs, you will become resurrected (if dead before armageddon)
Last edited by lockyfan; 03-31-2008 at 09:01 AM.
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  #107  
Old 03-31-2008, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason View Post
Jesus said that he existed before Abraham. what was he if he could do that?
John 8:58 has been dealt with extensively in another post. To say that he existed before Abraham does not prove deity. Noah existed before Abraham but wasn't a deity.....

Yeshua said he existed before Abraham and as I've been saying, confirmation as to his place is defined in his prayer to his god in chapter 17 of the book of John where Yehsua says:

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify, YOU, me with YOUR own self with the glory which I had WITH YOU before the world was.

Yeshua is saying he possessed glory with his god before the world began. This certainly means he was separate from God and not God. If he was God there would be no need for him to pray and ask for something that already belonged to him.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
This is another verse where he shows they are separate. This separation is in heaven as Yeshua shows he has his own will but submits to the will of his god. Additionally the verse immediately after that shows separation and his role as given to him by his god.
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  #108  
Old 03-31-2008, 10:49 AM
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In reading the posts here even a genius would be confused at the different views. I just want to try to simplify this for it appears that even some religious people are confused. I John 5:5-8 For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father,(God), Jesus, (the word) and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. (united) In John 14:6 no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. This is Jesus saying that He is the mediator between The Father (God) and us....be very careful here before you speak because in Mat 12;31-32 there are consequences to the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.... In all due respect to anyone reading this, I hope if you didn't know this you will study it and maybe receive some benefit from it. If you are an atheist then you don't believe it anyway, so why would you even be interested enough to read this and why are you interested in a religious education forum if in essence you don't believe in any religion? Is it just for argument's sake, do you want to change me or do you want me to try to convert you....I promise I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone. I am trying to get people to study for themselves and then reach their own conclusions....Study to show thyself approved....... Thank you (I shall be waiting on my chastisement and my tongue lashing)
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  #109  
Old 03-31-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Charity View Post
In reading the posts here even a genius would be confused at the different views. I just want to try to simplify this for it appears that even some religious people are confused. I John 5:5-8 For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father,(God), Jesus, (the word) and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. (united) In John 14:6 no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. This is Jesus saying that He is the mediator between The Father (God) and us....be very careful here before you speak because in Mat 12;31-32 there are consequences to the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost....
I agree with you to a point. Although scholars of the christian faith have removed 1 John 5-8 (RSV) because it does not appear that way in the earlier manuscripts and is regarded as an interpolation. I do agree that the scriptures show them as being one in purpose but not one in the same. Again, John chapter 17 confirms this.


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If you are an atheist then you don't believe it anyway, so why would you even be interested enough to read this and why are you interested in a religious education forum if in essence you don't believe in any religion?
So because I don't believe it I shouldn't reply? Does this go for theist who disagree with the interpretations? One does not have to believe in order to understand the arguments presented. One says Yeshua is God and another gazing upon the same scripture says otherwise. Neither side believes what the other believes but they still engage in dialogue to see how another person views it.


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Originally Posted by Charity View Post
Is it just for argument's sake, do you want to change me or do you want me to try to convert you....
No one here, that I can tell, are arguing.....Debating???? (Yes).......

No one can change you but you. Trying to convert others here are against the rules.


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Originally Posted by Charity View Post
I promise I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone.
I don't think you were disrespectful.......
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