scripture to condemn homosexuality (moral, Creator, Kingdom, translation, Revelation)

[Mike182]

first off

lets keep this to civil discussion, and not attack eachother - keep it friendly

secondly - when you quote scripture, please please please explain its relevance to the debate, dont just throw it in



so, what does the bible actaully say about homosexuality?

[James the Persian]

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Here's my first quote:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1 24-32, NKJV

Do you mind if I ask that everyone states which version they are using? I've already seen the use of at least one very poor translation with respect to this issue. In that case it was the NIV and was far removed from the text of the Septuagint (which is the original Christian OT).

James

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by corrupt_preist

so, what does the bible actaully say about homosexuality?

I think somewhere in Revelations it talks about using the forums search engine, which would probably lead you here - but I could be wrong.

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Originally Posted by IacobPersul

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Nice one James! That's right, it's the sin, not the sinner that should be condemned!

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by ThisShouldMakeSense

Nice one James! That's right, it's the sin, not the sinner that should be condemned!

But it is the sinner who must be put to death.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by IacobPersul

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Here's my first quote:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1 24-32, NKJV

Do you mind if I ask that everyone states which version they are using? I've already seen the use of at least one very poor translation with respect to this issue. In that case it was the NIV and was far removed from the text of the Septuagint (which is the original Christian OT).

James

i dont have scripture to support homosexual sex per se, but i kinda do aswell lol

i opend this thread because often peopel say "the bible clearly condemns homosexuality" and i dont think it does, so im asking for the verses that do this

the verse you quote does at face value condemn same sex relationships - however its this bit i find interesting

"they exchange the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator.... for this reason God gave them up ...."

i have not exchanged the truth of God for a lie, i do not worship the creature, so this verse does not apply to my situation because it says it was for this reason

it then gives a list of the qualities of the people being condemned posess - full of envy, murder, strife, deciet etc

this is not applicable to my situation because i no more murder, decieve, or envy any more than the next man - fair enough we are all filled with such things to an extent - but modern monogomous homosexuals are no more filled with this than others

i do like that translation though, its a lot better than others ive seen

[jorylore]

What about 1 Cor. 6:9 where it says that "men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men...", will inherit God's kingdom. (NWT) How much clearer can it be? But then in v. 11 it says, "yet that is what some of you were." In order to have God's approval, these one's needed to stop practicing same sex relations. I do agree that it is the practice the Bible condems and not the person.

[James the Persian]

OK, but I think that you are ignoring this

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

In favour of why God allowed them to fall into homosexual passions (described as vile). The text clearly describes the acts themselves as shameful and due a penalty and therefore I fail to see how you can say this doesn't apply. Sorry, but I don't understand. Some of the precursors to those passions may not apply and some of the other things they did or believed likewise, but even removed from these incidentals (which I quoted because I have issues with people ripping verses out of context) the text clearly appears to condemn homosexual acts both lesbian and gay.

James

[Mike182]