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  #1  
Old 07-19-2005, 06:31 AM
Carl Unger Offline
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Default Once Saved Always Saved vs. Lose Your Salvation

Do you believe that once we are saved we can't lose our salvation (OSAS) or do you believe that it is possible to lose your salvation (LYS) once you are saved?
If you have little knowledge of this topic, then please read the following verses.
The below verses can be used on both sides of the story.

Hebrews 6:4-6
John 10:27-29
Hebrews 10:29
Revelations 3:5
Ephesians 4:30
Hebrews 10:29-29
Hebrews 10:38-39
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:51 AM
may Offline
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may says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Unger
Do you believe that once we are saved we can't lose our salvation (OSAS) or do you believe that it is possible to lose your salvation (LYS) once you are saved?
If you have little knowledge of this topic, then please read the following verses.
The below verses can be used on both sides of the story.

Hebrews 6:4-6
John 10:27-29
Hebrews 10:29
Revelations 3:5
Ephesians 4:30
Hebrews 10:29-29
Hebrews 10:38-39
yes, we can most certainly lose our salvation .if we draw away from God he will draw away from us
Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God hebrews 3;12

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  #3  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Unger
Do you believe that once we are saved we can't lose our salvation (OSAS) or do you believe that it is possible to lose your salvation (LYS) once you are saved?
If you have little knowledge of this topic, then please read the following verses.
The below verses can be used on both sides of the story.

Hebrews 6:4-6
John 10:27-29
Hebrews 10:29
Revelations 3:5
Ephesians 4:30
Hebrews 10:29-29
Hebrews 10:38-39
Hi Carl,

Before I answer your question (or at least attempt to), as I noticed that this is your first post on the forum, that I would like to welcome you to this great family.

You might like to have a look at :- Articles for New Members ; from there, there is a link to the forum rules, which you also ought to see.


Seeing as you have given me a whole load of reading to do, before I aswer your question, perhaps you might like to post on:-
Are you new to ReligiousForums.com? in order to introduce yourself to everyone.

Hope you like it here.......
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  #4  
Old 07-19-2005, 09:01 AM
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Frankly, OSAS is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that. If it were true then all we'd have to do is say 'I believe' and we'd go to heaven no matter what we did later - even Hitler and Stalin would qualify for heaven on those terms, Hitler having started life as a Roman Catholic and Stalin having been a Georgian Orthodox seminarian.

James
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2005, 09:16 AM
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Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

This passage (Hebrews 6:4-6) has been very controversial, the argument having to do with whether or not it teaches that a true Christian can lose his salvation. One very clear teaching that emerges, however, is that a person can only be saved once. If a true Christian actually could fall away and be lost again, he would be eternally lost; it would be impossible to bring him again to repentance.
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

In context, the author of Hebrews was warning the Jews, who had professed faith in Christ, not to relapse back into Jewish legalism and ritualism, but rather to go on to full maturity in Christ

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"If they shall fall away" from the true faith, having once fully understood it ("been enlightened," having been made "partakers of the Holy Ghost," etc.), then they can never return.

John 10 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The Lord resumed His use of the sheep and shepherd "proverb;" evidently it had made a lasting impression on His questioners, even after so long a time (see note on John 10:22). He now stressed the permanence of this relationship (John 5:24).


10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Not only is eternal life a present possession, but the good Shepherd assures us that no one ("any man" is actually "anyone," including Satan himself) could ever take it away.


10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

"Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand" (Psalm 37:24).

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These descriptions of the willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) make it clear that it is the unforgivable sin of willful, knowledgeable apostasy from the faith.

Revelations 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

All whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), and all who reject the words of Scripture will have their names blotted out (see note on Revelation 22:19). On the other hand, those who overcome will never compromise their faith in Christ, even at the risk of their lives (Revelation 13:8). It seems probable that all who enter the world have their names in the Lamb's book of life and are safe in Him until they reach an age of accountability and become conscious sinners. At that point they are spiritually dead and need salvation, but their names are not actually blotted out of the book of life until they have irrevocably rejected Christ.


Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

The "sealed work" (Ephesians 1:13) of the Spirit is conclusive, and it cannot be "unsealed," even though we may "grieve" the Spirit by such sins as noted in these verses.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
This is the last of the three quotations in the New Testament of Habakkuk 2:4 (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11).

10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"Believe" here is the same as "have faith." The emphasis throughout Hebrews 11 on "faith" is simply a recital of the outworking of the faith introduced into the discussion here in Hebrews 10:38,39 (there were no chapter divisions in the original manuscript). Thus the working faith of Hebrews 11 is the living faith of Hebrews 10:38 and the saving faith of Hebrews 10:39, and that faith must be exercised first of all on the creation as the work of God (Hebrews 11:3).


Having provided the verses for everyone to ponder over, there have been replies - How do you guys do it?

I think I see things differently from you James -LYS seems to be the 'message' .
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  #6  
Old 07-19-2005, 11:41 AM
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I am just curious. Has anyone besides me went to a church that taught both OSAS and LYS? One Sunday the pastor taught of LYS, then the next Monday night at a youth group meeting, the youth pastor taught of OSAS.

Im not Christian, so I know this isn't my place to debate, but I have to agree with Cynic, May, Jacob, and Micheal.
Quote:
yes, we can most certainly lose our salvation .if we draw away from God he will draw away from us
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  #7  
Old 07-20-2005, 06:01 AM
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There is also another question....
Once Salvation is Lost, can it ever be regained?

now you may quote Hebrews 6:4-6 which says that they can't be renewed again.
but I believe that these apostates cannot be renewed unto repentence whilst they are Recrucifying him and bringing him to an open shame.

Here is why:
Quote:
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing [Present Tense] they crucify [Present Tense] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [Present Tense] him to an open shame.
in other words, they cannot be renewed unto repentance whilethey are presently crucifying Christ and bringing him to an open shame.
Feel free to disagree.....
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  #8  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:08 AM
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Well, actually for us the idea of once saved always saved is true if looked at in a certain light but you can definitely fall away from Christ whilst alive (sort of lose your salvation).

The thing is that neither idea actually makes sense in the context of Orthodoxy.

Nobody really is saved now (though it may be that if they dropped dead at this moment they would be) and so it is impossible to lose your salvation - you were never 'saved' to begin with. Once you actually are saved you're already dead and so there's not really any opportunity to backslide, which means we do sort of believe in OSAS, just not while you're alive (which of course means our soteriology is actually very different).

For us salvation is a process not an event. We run the race and if we stay the course we will be saved. If we don't stay the course then we will not. Asking me if I'm 'saved' is like asking me if I'm at the finish line while I'm still running and asking me if salvation can be lost is therefore equally nonsensical. The whole issue seems to only affect those who consider themselves Protestant, Reformed or Non-Denominational - who all look rather alike from my perspective.

James
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2005, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IacobPersul
Frankly, OSAS is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that. If it were true then all we'd have to do is say 'I believe' and we'd go to heaven no matter what we did later - even Hitler and Stalin would qualify for heaven on those terms, Hitler having started life as a Roman Catholic and Stalin having been a Georgian Orthodox seminarian.

James
How do you explain verses like
Romans 4:1-3: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [the believing] was counted unto him for righteousness.

You have said it's nonsense but Romans 4:1-3 conflicts with your statements. You know, if Martin Luther had been able to live another thirty, forty, sixty or one hundred years, he might have brought about a major reformation. Only a partial one. He did not live long enough and neither did some others. Much of Protestanism today still has vestiges of its Roman Catholic background. But Martin Luther did see accurate principles from God's Word. One he saw is found in the Book of Romans which declares that man is justified by faith. He realized that salvation is not of works, but by faith and by the grace of God. But also Romans shows the differnce between receiving righteousness by works and righteousness by grace. He explains both of them, that's the point. OSAS is not nonsense. The Word explains righteousness by faith and on top of that explains righteousness by works in Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh [he that does good works] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." The bible explains very simply that if we work for something, we have earned what we receive. Abraham didn't work for righteousness. He believed God and God did what? Counted it to him or reckoned it unto him for righteousness. I don't even see why this is a debate. Even David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. By all means I think everyone should do good works but for someone to make claims to christianity and say righteousness with faith is nonsense cannont stand approved before God.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:49 AM
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True Blood;
Does this help?
4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
The supposed contradiction between Paul and James has been widely noted. Paul says Abraham was not justified by works; James says he was (James 2:21). The point is that Abraham was justified by faith in God's Word, but he then was asked to demonstrate that his faith was genuine by his works. He was justified before God by faith but was justified before men by his works (James 2:21-24).

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
The Scripture cited is Genesis 15:6. As Paul notes later (Romans 4:9-15), Abraham was justified by faith before he was given the sign of circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14) and before the law was given, so justification by faith is God's original and basic standard (a genuine faith in God and His Word, a faith which then causes one to obey God's Word).
Word).
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