Genesis 3 (Earth, Eden, Jehovah, choice, evolve)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Just because it was written later doesn't mean it is fiction.

And just because you believe in fairy tales doesn't mean that it is fact. There is no evidence to warrant the belief in Jesus as deity, and precious little to justify belief in Jesus as man.

[Aqualung]

There's no evidence that states my beleif is false, or no that you have provided, anyway. The only thing you have said in this debate is, essentially, "you are wrong. That's all there is to it." You really need to give me something of substance. First, you made a sarcastic comment about my clearification of someone else's question. Then, you told me I had baseless arguments. I provided a base by showing that there were far too many instances of things happening for it to be some sort of fabrication, and you said I beleive in fairy tales. In no way have you ever given me any reason to beleive that I do. You have never once backed up what you have said with any information, and, until you do, I really have nothing to debate. I can't debate something when the other person doesn't provide thier view and things to support it.

[jonny]

I believe that Genesis 3:15 is a promise as much as it is a prophesy. Adam and Eve are being banished out of the Garden and sent into "the real world." They will no longer live in the direct presence of God. The serpent represents Satan and his seed are his followers. God is promising Eve that her seed (us) will have the power to overcome Satan and his seed through Jesus Christ.

I have also heard "her seed" being interpreted as Christ, which would mean that God is promising that He will come to earth and overcome sin, which was introduced into the world when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden.

On a somewhat related topic, assuming that the story of the Garden of Eden is true and that God knew that Adam and Eve would transgress and be cast out of the Garden, why do you believe that God planned it this way? He obviously knew that Adam and Eve would leave the garden. Why do you think he put Adam and Eve in a situation where they had to choose to stay in the Garden and follow his commandment to "not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" or partake of the fruit and leave the garden?" I have my theories, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say.

[Aqualung]

I've wondered about that myself, and I'd really like to here your theory (since you actually have one. I never got that far.) as well as other peoples'.

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

I 'd like to stay on topic as to the prophecy about Jesus and other prophecies for that matter. but on the subject of God planning Adam's sin, why do you think he did? that would be a contradiction. God's 4 main qualities are Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power. and he is perfect in all these qualities. however, everything he does is governed by love. God is Love. would it be loving for God to do that? tell adam not to sin, then tempt him, knowing that he would sin and then punish him for what he did?
You see, some have said, why didn't God wipe out adam and eve and satan right then and start again? well, satan had challenged God. he was challenging him as to who has the right to rule, who is sovereign. is man better off without God or not? the angels were witnesses to the challenge. now, God could have wiped them out too. if he wanted to, he could have wiped everyone out and started again. no one would know what he did, if he didn't tell them...but he didn't. Like i said, God is perfect in Justice. the challenge was set. Let's see if man is better off without God. if he did wipe out everyone, it would go against God's own standards of justice. just as it says God CAN'T lie, so there is NO injustice with God.
So it's clear that although God has the ability to foresee everything, he is selective when choosing to do so. otherwise, why would he say that he desires none to be destroyed, if he already knows what everyone is going to do anyway/ look at his pleadings with the Jews, asking them to turn around from bad, not to do certain things. if he has predestined everything, there would be no Love on God's part for us, no way of proving our loyalty to him, no point in preaching, no point in doing God's will, no point in anything, as everything has been taken out of our hands and we are just puppets with no free will.
and that is why the world is in the state it's in. since the garden of eden man has been given free reign to prove if he can govern himself. has been able to? look at history.
there is only one way for man to live, and that is under God's rule. he is the one teaching us to benefit ourselves. do things his way and it will turn out for the better. Man has had thousands of years to try all sorts of governments and although some have been relatively successful, they have not been able solve all of mankind’s problems. Even the bigger things such as growing old and dying. These are the promises of the bible. Revelation 21: 3,4. God’s kingdom is the only way out. Jesus is king of that kingdom. He said his kingdom is no part of this world. He told us to pray for it in the lord’s prayer. Daniel prophesied about it when explaining the image of nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The kingdom would shatter the image representing world powers, in the feet, the time we’re in now. And the kingdom, or government is real, and as prophesied, will stand to time indefinite. And it very close to stepping in. it is in the days of these kings, our time, that the image will be destroyed and now is the time for God’s kingdom to begin it’s rule.

[may]

Originally Posted by ThisShouldMakeSense

I 'd like to stay on topic as to the prophecy about Jesus and other prophecies for that matter. but on the subject of God planning Adam's sin, why do you think he did? that would be a contradiction. God's 4 main qualities are Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power. and he is perfect in all these qualities. however, everything he does is governed by love. God is Love. would it be loving for God to do that? tell adam not to sin, then tempt him, knowing that he would sin and then punish him for what he did?
You see, some have said, why didn't God wipe out adam and eve and satan right then and start again? well, satan had challenged God. he was challenging him as to who has the right to rule, who is sovereign. is man better off without God or not? the angels were witnesses to the challenge. now, God could have wiped them out too. if he wanted to, he could have wiped everyone out and started again. no one would know what he did, if he didn't tell them...but he didn't. Like i said, God is perfect in Justice. the challenge was set. Let's see if man is better off without God. if he did wipe out everyone, it would go against God's own standards of justice. just as it says God CAN'T lie, so there is NO injustice with God.
So it's clear that although God has the ability to foresee everything, he is selective when choosing to do so. otherwise, why would he say that he desires none to be destroyed, if he already knows what everyone is going to do anyway/ look at his pleadings with the Jews, asking them to turn around from bad, not to do certain things. if he has predestined everything, there would be no Love on God's part for us, no way of proving our loyalty to him, no point in preaching, no point in doing God's will, no point in anything, as everything has been taken out of our hands and we are just puppets with no free will.
and that is why the world is in the state it's in. since the garden of eden man has been given free reign to prove if he can govern himself. has been able to? look at history.
there is only one way for man to live, and that is under God's rule. he is the one teaching us to benefit ourselves. do things his way and it will turn out for the better. Man has had thousands of years to try all sorts of governments and although some have been relatively successful, they have not been able solve all of mankind’s problems. Even the bigger things such as growing old and dying. These are the promises of the bible. Revelation 21: 3,4. God’s kingdom is the only way out. Jesus is king of that kingdom. He said his kingdom is no part of this world. He told us to pray for it in the lord’s prayer. Daniel prophesied about it when explaining the image of nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The kingdom would shatter the image representing world powers, in the feet, the time we’re in now. And the kingdom, or government is real, and as prophesied, will stand to time indefinite. And it very close to stepping in. it is in the days of these kings, our time, that the image will be destroyed and now is the time for God’s kingdom to begin it’s rule.

yes i agree and then there will be peace on the earth , just as God intended in the first place psalm 37 ;11And just a little while longer ,and the wicked one(satan the devil) will be no more, And you will certainly give attention to his place,and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace ,yes as you said this will come about through Gods heavenly kingdom goverment
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite...daniel 2;44

[Malkav's Knight]

To sin or not sin is choice based off human traits. I dont think Eve was seduced. The Serpant merely pointed out that she would not die if she ate and she didnt die. It was her choice to eat it, no seduction involved. God gave them the desire to gain knowledge, the serpant just pointed out that iot was ok to gain that knowledge and that you wont die if u do.

[may]

Originally Posted by Malkav's Knight

To sin or not sin is choice based off human traits. I dont think Eve was seduced. The Serpant merely pointed out that she would not die if she ate and she didnt die. It was her choice to eat it, no seduction involved. God gave them the desire to gain knowledge, the serpant just pointed out that iot was ok to gain that knowledge and that you wont die if u do.

But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ .......... 2 corinthians 11;3 i think the bible tells us that eve was seduced

(Genesis 3:4) At this the serpent said to the woman: "YOU positively will not die.

(1 Timothy 2:14) Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression............... and she did die , we are in a dieing state ever since, she could have lived forever ,but she died
That is why, just as through one man(Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned— romans 5;12.................just as Jehovah had the right to make up his rules for man , satan decided that he would make the rules instead and eve listened so it brings in a bigger picture, it is the issue of universal sovreingty ,what is the best form of rulership ,Gods or satans? and the issue is still ongoing , but not for long,
As the King of the Messianic Kingdom, the promised Seed, Jesus Christ, will ‘bruise Satan in the head.’ Yes, "shortly," Jesus will crush the rebel Satan!—Romans 16:20.

[EnhancedSpirit]

Originally Posted by jonny

I believe that Genesis 3:15 is a promise as much as it is a prophesy. Adam and Eve are being banished out of the Garden and sent into "the real world." They will no longer live in the direct presence of God. The serpent represents Satan and his seed are his followers. God is promising Eve that her seed (us) will have the power to overcome Satan and his seed through Jesus Christ.

I have also heard "her seed" being interpreted as Christ, which would mean that God is promising that He will come to earth and overcome sin, which was introduced into the world when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden.

On a somewhat related topic, assuming that the story of the Garden of Eden is true and that God knew that Adam and Eve would transgress and be cast out of the Garden, why do you believe that God planned it this way? He obviously knew that Adam and Eve would leave the garden. Why do you think he put Adam and Eve in a situation where they had to choose to stay in the Garden and follow his commandment to "not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" or partake of the fruit and leave the garden?" I have my theories, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Maybe we needed to fall to learn. One of the best ways to learn something is by making mistakes. If God know all, then he, of course, knew that Eve would eat the apple and give it to Adam. Maybe God uses reverse psychology. We were given the choice to remain 'ignorant' to good and evil, but what fun would that have been?