Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates / Scriptural Debates / Biblical Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 12-15-2011, 02:25 PM
tarasan's Avatar
tarasan Offline
Religion: anglician diet
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England/N.Ireland
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,006
Frubals: 119
tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
well here is where is see the problem with your argument; jesus mentions isaiah 53:12.

luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
now if you could explain your point please
.
__________________
The great blessings of mankind are within us and within our reach; but we shut our eyes, and like people in the dark, we fall foul upon the very thing we search for, without finding it.
- Seneca
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-15-2011, 04:20 PM
waitasec Offline
Religion: irrelevantist
Title:BANNED
Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For getting 20,000 Posts 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: in total darkness
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 21,014
Frubals: 489
waitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lot
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarasan View Post
now if you could explain your point please
.
my point being it has nothing to do with defensive measures, it's being targeted with the offenders of roman rule.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-15-2011, 10:47 PM
sincerly's Avatar
sincerly Offline
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: on earth presently
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866
Frubals: 38
sincerly is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
as jesus, son of god who is a part of the god head, he knew this was going to be the case... as jesus, son of god who is a part of the god head, he was able to predict peter denying him 3 times yet he was unable to know what would happen when he wasn't in the presence of himself?

yet...
he asked for swords
he was hiding out
he tried to flee
and he never flat out and told everyone who he was because he didn't want to die

over and over again he says he has come to do the will of his father...not his. and what was that exactly?

sure we can have a story of a man who performed miracles, taught us how to pray and then taught us how to treat one another and then become the ultimate human sacrifice and then proclaim, 'i am god the creator of this universe.' for he would know, as god the creator of the universe, that caesar (the roman authorities) would have him killed for saying such a thing and there would be the opportunity for him to sacrifice himself willingly. and that would be that. but we don't have that in any of the narratives. just a lot of apologetics and excuses for the inconsistencies found when comparing the 4 gospel stories, and certain theologies.
Hi waitasec, we don't have your version/opinion/spin on the combined reports of the last events in Jesus Christ's life because in context of the events as a whole you view is just a concoction of your imagination----which you certainly have the option/right to freely do. However, a truth seeker sees the point Luke has emphasized---the truths of the events in the life of Jesus and how they relate to the salvation/redemption of disobedient mankind.

Waitasec, Yes, HE [b]WILLINGLY]/b] did take the sins of mankind in order that HE might save those who believe. There is NO Forcing of any to accept and submit to the Father's Will---that is by Faith and a desire to have GOD as one's GOD.

Again, believe that which pleases you. Everyone will respond to the question asked by Pilate,(Matt.27:22), "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
never mind the tension the jewish people were going through after the destruction of the temple and the revolt against the jewish leaders that happen to birth a new cult. no that could never it now can it...
Waitasec, There was no "new cult", The temple wasn't destroyed until A.D.70---some 40 years after the Crucifixion. Jesus' "church" had stated that the remnant of Jewish believers would continue in the "Oracles of GOD" and the Nation of Israel would no longer be considered HIS People. OT prophecy/fulfilled. The "followers of the Way" were hunted down by the Jewish people and the Roman Empire destroyed the Temple/Jerusalem because of continued revolts. No, your surmisings do not fulfill the prophecies.

Last edited by sincerly; 12-15-2011 at 10:54 PM.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-15-2011, 11:26 PM
waitasec Offline
Religion: irrelevantist
Title:BANNED
Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For getting 20,000 Posts 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: in total darkness
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 21,014
Frubals: 489
waitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lot
Default

hi sincerly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Hi waitasec, we don't have your version/opinion/spin on the combined reports of the last events in Jesus Christ's life because in context of the events as a whole you view
----which you certainly have the option/right to freely do. However, a truth seeker sees the point Luke has emphasized---the truths of the events in the life of Jesus and how they relate to the salvation/redemption of disobedient mankind.
can you elaborate

and let me ask you this, do you read the gospels from top to bottom rather than side to side by comparing each story?

Quote:
Waitasec, Yes, HE [b]WILLINGLY]/b] did take the sins of mankind in order that HE might save those who believe. There is NO Forcing of any to accept and submit to the Father's Will---that is by Faith and a desire to have GOD as one's GOD.
not my will but yours will be done....take this cup away

these are not statements of a person who is willing to be sacrificed...
what you are speaking of is a newer theology...

Quote:
Again, believe that which pleases you. Everyone will respond to the question asked by Pilate,(Matt.27:22), "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?"
moot..proves nothing and is circular reasoning.

Quote:
Waitasec, There was no "new cult", The temple wasn't destroyed until A.D.70---some 40 years after the Crucifixion. Jesus' "church" had stated that the remnant of Jewish believers would continue in the "Oracles of GOD" and the Nation of Israel would no longer be considered HIS People. OT prophecy/fulfilled. The "followers of the Way" were hunted down by the Jewish people and the Roman Empire destroyed the Temple/Jerusalem because of continued revolts. No, your surmisings do not fulfill the prophecies.
again moot and your using circular logic here.
you should ask yourself, when were these gospels stories written....? after the destruction of the temple.

matthew wasn't written by matthew...the gospel was orally passed down until someone, who happened to be literate came along and wrote matthew's gospel...it's heresay, legend...and the same applies to the other gospels.
historically speaking, the jews were confused- why had god allowed for it's destruction AGAIN...
the jesus movement helped reconcile that dilemma as this was a pivotal point in judaism.. synagogues were now a place of worship and the pharisees were the ones that were against this new movement...which is why you see jesus depicted as being so hard on them. think about it, the christians were not going to side themselves with the jews. consider the gospel of john where he has pilate ask 3 times if he should let jesus free and pretty much blames the jews for crucifying jesus...that way they can distance themselves from the jews by blaming them for killing the messiah and not be associated with them as strife continued on after the destruction of the temple and guess when the gospel of john was written...between 90-100 CE...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-16-2011, 02:41 AM
tarasan's Avatar
tarasan Offline
Religion: anglician diet
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England/N.Ireland
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,006
Frubals: 119
tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
my point being it has nothing to do with defensive measures, it's being targeted with the offenders of roman rule.
Really because being numbered with the transgressors means that essentially the Messianic prophecy was about to be fulfilled that is it.

This shows nothing about Jesus expecting them to defend him once they came, in fact as you cited later on Jesus in fact did not want them to defend him at that time.

So again why cant them buying swords be out of tradition as well as defence from bandits and animals rather than fighting the Romans?
__________________
The great blessings of mankind are within us and within our reach; but we shut our eyes, and like people in the dark, we fall foul upon the very thing we search for, without finding it.
- Seneca
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-16-2011, 08:00 AM
waitasec Offline
Religion: irrelevantist
Title:BANNED
Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For getting 20,000 Posts 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: in total darkness
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 21,014
Frubals: 489
waitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lot
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarasan View Post
Really because being numbered with the transgressors means that essentially the Messianic prophecy was about to be fulfilled that is it.
which makes what jesus said in john inconsistent with the messianic prophecy, don't you think?
“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


Quote:
This shows nothing about Jesus expecting them to defend him once they came, in fact as you cited later on Jesus in fact did not want them to defend him at that time.
where did i say that?

Quote:
So again why cant them buying swords be out of tradition as well as defence from bandits and animals rather than fighting the Romans?
because it doesn't fit in the context of the story as it was being laid out...nor would it fit the supposed prophecy in Is.

this is the context in luke:

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!” 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

Last edited by waitasec; 12-16-2011 at 08:04 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-16-2011, 04:23 PM
sincerly's Avatar
sincerly Offline
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: on earth presently
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866
Frubals: 38
sincerly is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
hi sincerly...

matthew wasn't written by matthew...the gospel was orally passed down until someone, who happened to be literate came along and wrote matthew's gospel...it's heresay, legend...and the same applies to the other gospels.
historically speaking, the jews were confused- why had god allowed for it's destruction AGAIN...
To the contrary, Matthew had been a tax collecter, Hardly one who was "illiterate". The "mootness" is seen in your replies which are not factual. The Gospels were written and expressed in the language to give the principles of the events and not to be verbatum for another's expressions. That fact actually strengthens the validity of the report. In this case, that these writings were concerning the validity of what all believers "BELIEVED". The Principles- not a repertition of words---per se.






the jesus movement helped reconcile that dilemma as this was a pivotal point in judaism.. synagogues were now a place of worship and the pharisees were the ones that were against this new movement...which is why you see jesus depicted as being so hard on them. think about it, the christians were not going to side themselves with the jews. consider the gospel of john where he has pilate ask 3 times if he should let jesus free and pretty much blames the jews for crucifying jesus...that way they can distance themselves from the jews by blaming them for killing the messiah and not be associated with them as strife continued on after the destruction of the temple and guess when the gospel of john was written...between 90-100 CE...[/quote]
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-16-2011, 04:53 PM
waitasec Offline
Religion: irrelevantist
Title:BANNED
Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For getting 20,000 Posts 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: in total darkness
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 21,014
Frubals: 489
waitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lotwaitasec is sleepy because, frankly, your frubals snore a lot
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
To the contrary, Matthew had been a tax collecter, Hardly one who was "illiterate". The "mootness" is seen in your replies which are not factual. The Gospels were written and expressed in the language to give the principles of the events and not to be verbatum for another's expressions. That fact actually strengthens the validity of the report. In this case, that these writings were concerning the validity of what all believers "BELIEVED". The Principles- not a repertition of words---per se.
you are 'sincerly' mistaken...

Authorship and sources
The Gospel of Matthew does not name its author. The Christian bishop, Papias of Hierapolis, about 100–140 AD, in a passage with several ambiguous phrases, wrote: "Matthew collected the oracles (logia—sayings of or about Jesus) in the Hebrew language (Hebraïdi dialektōi—perhaps alternatively "Hebrew style") and each one interpreted (hērmēneusen—or "translated") them as best he could."[4] On the surface this implies that Matthew was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek, but Matthew's Greek "reveals none of the telltale marks of a translation."[5] Scholars have put forward several theories to explain Papias: perhaps Matthew wrote two gospels, one, now lost, in Hebrew, the other our Greek version; or perhaps the logia was a collection of sayings rather than the gospel; or by dialektōi Papias may have meant that Matthew wrote in the Jewish style rather than in the Hebrew language.[4]
Papias does not identify his Matthew, but by the end of the 2nd century the tradition of Matthew the tax-collector had become widely accepted, and the line "The Gospel According to Matthew" began to be added to manuscripts.[6]


Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



here is an interesting piece you may be interested in
Watch The Full Program Online | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS

it will give you an insight that not many pastors talk about...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:17 AM
tarasan's Avatar
tarasan Offline
Religion: anglician diet
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England/N.Ireland
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,006
Frubals: 119
tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
which makes what jesus said in john inconsistent with the messianic prophecy, don't you think?
“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
No not at all! why would even think that? all the prophecy says is that the messiah would dye im not sure what your trying to do with this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
where did i say that?
you quoted Luke were Jesus healed the Ear of the priest didnt you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
because it doesn't fit in the context of the story as it was being laid out...nor would it fit the supposed prophecy in Is.

this is the context in luke:

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!” 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.
I am not seeing man.
__________________
The great blessings of mankind are within us and within our reach; but we shut our eyes, and like people in the dark, we fall foul upon the very thing we search for, without finding it.
- Seneca
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:38 AM
tarasan's Avatar
tarasan Offline
Religion: anglician diet
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England/N.Ireland
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,006
Frubals: 119
tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.tarasan sleeps on a big pile of frubals.  This is how some of them end up with drool stains.
Default

I have re read your question at the start just to make sure that I did not misunderstand. However I still see no contradiction in those it was customary to buy swords for self defence purposes. Peter was an overzealous idiot. There does not seem much left to be said.
__________________
The great blessings of mankind are within us and within our reach; but we shut our eyes, and like people in the dark, we fall foul upon the very thing we search for, without finding it.
- Seneca
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 AM.


Copyright © 2014 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.