does God need faith (Jesus, Creator, Torah, HaShem, tradition)

[robtex]

[QOUTE=micheal] it confirms my belief in the need of "Faith"

My understanding is that God requires faith total unerring faith in him from us.[/QOUTE]

Interesting statement. I have two questions about it.

1) why would an all poweful God need anything from anyone ?
2) why if he needed faith did he create himself as that which is unevidencable by conventional means?

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by robtex

1) why would an all poweful God need anything from anyone ?
2) why if he needed faith did he create himself as that which is unevidencable by conventional means?

you know reading this i'm reminded of my final exam in my ethics and philosophy class...one question...
Why?
my answer: Why not?

From an orthodox standpoint HaShem needs nothing, He is complete in himself...
As far as faith w/o evidence...that's arguable i think...one could argue the continued existance of the Jewish people as an affirmation of His existance and power...
of course even that statement is not w/o flaw...i suppose it just depends on your perspective...

[robtex]

Originally Posted by jewscout

you know reading this i'm reminded of my final exam in my ethics and philosophy class...one question...
Why?
my answer: Why not?

1) Because he is all powerful and if he needed anything than he would not be all powerful. One cannot be both all powerful AND needy.

2) there are no indicators that he needs faith....He doesn't materlize to our 5 senses which suggests he doesn't have a need for faith...

take you and rachel...you need her love and attention....she realizes this because you call her visit her and write her ( i am assuming you email her), God doesnt' reveal himself to millions and many would speculate (self included ) that he doesn't reveal himself at all...if he need faith he would work harder at getting attention by being accessable to our 5 senses which is the tools he is said to have provided for our understanding of our world. Ie he doesn't solict attention via our 5 senses.

3) emotions are not attributed to that which sits in absolute judgement.....as far as i am aware...God didn't drown mankind in the torah because he was ticked off he did it judgementally which is to say in his divine reasoning not as an emotional outburst...needing faith makes a plea to emotional acceptance and is outside the realm of rational divine judgement.

[jewscout]

ok whoaaaaa doggies let me back up here....

perhaps i should apologize for not fully understanding and or comprehending your first post robtex, it's been a bit nuts today at work...

ok first of Michel's premise is wrong...at least as far as traditional judaism goes...He says Hashem needs our faith...from a traditional jewish standpoint no He doesn't need our faith in Him or anything else...it's one of the 13 principles of Jewish faith set down by the Rambam that HaShem is complete w/in Himself...
He says that even if nothing existed HaShem would exist, and if HaShem did not exist nothing would exist...

Of course this is a more Orthodox bend on it...i have no doubt there are more opinions w/in the Jewish community...

after that i think you're getting into the question of, if G-d or the Divine exists why doesn't it make itself more apparent to us in the Material realm...which is for another thread (actually i think you had a thread like that a while back)

[angellous_evangellous]

#1 - God needs nothing. As creator, He is self-sustaining and not reliant on anything. Christians confess that he demands praise, and it is good for us to do so, we need it, not him

#2 - IMHO, God loves freedom and he blesses the entire creation with it. If God were observable, IMO, he wouldn't be divine. However, if we could entertain the question, if god were observable, then every rational person would have to believe, and it would not require faith, and it would not be a religion. IMO, God would have to be perceivable for most people to "believe" and not merely provable in the abstract. Philosophy is not very reliable as it is ruled by presuppositions as much as correct premises and the rules of logic.

IMHO, God values freedom, and this gift to humanity has come with great cost, but has produced amazing beauty.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by micheal

My understanding is that God requires faith total unerring faith in him from us.

Robtex, I think the beginning premise here is wrong. God does NOT require this. He just wants an eensie teensie tiny bit of faith.

Matthew 17:16. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him." 17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, `Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "

Mark 9:23 "`If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
24. Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again." 26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up. 28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 29 He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer. "