Ephesians 2:8-9

[Pegg]

Originally Posted by Falcon

very good Pegg

thanks. Glad you understood because i do see that a lot of people think Paul and James are contradicting each other over this issue of 'works'


but they dont realise that Paul is speaking about works of the mosaic law such as not eating certain foods, doing certain things on certain days etc...but those works do not bring a person salvation is what Paul is saying. Just as James is saying that 'good works' of faith prove a persons faith and those good works are a result of faith.

It all ties in with Jesus words to prove yourselves sons of your Father by doing the works of that one.

[Shermana]

Originally Posted by Pegg

the type of 'works' James is talking about is love, kindness, goodness... look at the context. He says if you see a widow in need but dont provide what you can, then you are not really a person with faith

so he is not speaking about works as in works of law that we must do...such as 'you must not murder' 'you must not covet' etc

he's speaking about works of love and compassion....these are perfected by true faith. If you have true faith, you will naturally display such good qualities because they are godly qualities. Does that make sense?

The context of James is clearly talking about the Mosaic Law. That's why he says if you commit adultery you commit the equivalent of murder. When he says if you break one Law, you break the "Whole" of it (Panton, not "all of it", as some translations say). Did he just suddenly change contexts within a few verses? The focus was on obeying the Whole of the Law and being mindful to not slip. To get your opinion you'd have to snip out approximately half what James says. When he says BY works you are justified, that doesn't mean they come as a result, it means you are justified BY works. James clearly says that unless you're obeying Mosaic law, something's wrong. If you are justified BY works that means they are a process involved in the Salvation, which relaying to the rest of what he says, is regarding the Mosaic Law. If you want, we can actually go over each chapter of james to get the context of this.

[Pegg]

Originally Posted by Shermana

The context of James is clearly talking about the Mosaic Law. That's why he says if you commit adultery you commit the equivalent of murder. When he says if you break one Law, you break the "Whole" of it (Panton, not "all of it", as some translations say). Did he just suddenly change contexts within a few verses? The focus was on obeying the Whole of the Law and being mindful to not slip. To get your opinion you'd have to snip out approximately half what James says. When he says BY works you are justified,

what you need to do is read all of what James said so that you can see the context.

James 2:1 My brothers, YOU are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, our glory, with acts of favoritism, are YOU? 2 For, if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in splendid clothing enters into a gathering of YOU, but a poor [man] in filthy clothing also enters, 3 yet YOU look with favor upon the one wearing the splendid clothing...4 YOU have class distinctions among yourselves and YOU have become judges rendering wicked decisions, is that not so?
5 Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor...6 YOU, though, have dishonored the poor [man]. ...8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: “You must love your neighbor as yourself,” YOU are doing quite well. 9 But if YOU continue showing favoritism, YOU are working a sin, for YOU are reproved by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. 11 For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,” said also: “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law. 12 Keep on speaking in such a way and keep on doing in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people. 13 For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment.


What james was really showing was that by showing favoratism they were transgressing the kingly law of love...and this he likened to a a jew who transgressed just one of the mosaic laws, that person would be a transgressor of all the laws. If the brothers continued to show favoratism, they would be transgressing the law of Christ and therefore would be judged accordingly as a transgressor.

[Shermana]

Thanks for telling me what I need to do, why don't you go over each individual line like I said. Underlining them is one thing, now go over them in context of each other in a way that dispels what I said.

You also ignored what I said how the word is supposed to be "Whole of the Law" instead of "All of the Laws". Is he saying you can thus break any law you want? Or is he saying you have to obey the Laws and thus breaking one is breaking the Law itself? Is he saying this is an excuse for you to break the Law? A candy thief and an axe murderer have both "Broken the whole of the Law".

Notice that the two sins in comparison are capital offenses in Jewish Law, both death penalty. Not all crimes carry the Death Penalty.

Another rarely mentioned thing, in the end of Chapter 5 James says that if you correct you brother you "Cover over a great deal of your own sins". What do you suppose it means to "Cover over a great deal of your sins" by "Correcting your brother".

[Pegg]

Originally Posted by Shermana

Thanks for telling me what I need to do, why don't you go over each individual line like I said. Underlining them is one thing, now go over them in context of each other in a way that dispels what I said.

You also ignored what I said how the word is supposed to be "Whole of the Law" instead of "All of the Laws". Is he saying you can thus break any law you want? Or is he saying you have to obey the Laws and thus breaking one is breaking the Law itself? Is he saying this is an excuse for you to break the Law? A candy thief and an axe murderer have both "Broken the whole of the Law".

christians were not under the mosaic laws except for the few that were carried over as binding on all mankind...they are the laws such as murder and fornication...these are binding on everyone.

the way we understand what James is saying is, not that those christians were still under the mosaic law.... but rather that the law about 'love' (the kingly law) would rule out showing favoritism. He is only 'likening' that issue to being a jew under the mosaic law who, if broke one commandment...would be tantamount to transgressing against all the laws.

So to show favoritism as some were doing, they were transgressing all of the 'kingly law' of love.

Originally Posted by Shermana

Notice that the two sins in comparison are capital offenses in Jewish Law, both death penalty. Not all crimes carry the Death Penalty.

Another rarely mentioned thing, in the end of Chapter 5 James says that if you correct you brother you "Cover over a great deal of your own sins". What do you suppose it means to "Cover over a great deal of your sins" by "Correcting your brother".

James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

You can see the context of what James is saying. He's talking about helping someone who has committed sin to repent and be forgiven. If we go back to verse 14 it says:
14 Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him...Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed

So the 'mulitude of sins covered' has to do with being in good standing with God. Salvation is only possible to those who are in good standing, and if someone was concealing sins and committing sins, they are not in a good standing with God. So James is urging the brothers to confess their sins and get healed spiritually.
Paul wrote to Timothy about something similar...he wrote:
1Timothy 4:16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you

If a sinner repents and listens, he will be saved... as will the teacher who is promoting Gods laws and helping others to walk in them.

[e r.m.]

It would be helpful to go through the scriptures and list ALL the places where it refers to works to understand what the authors are referring to, not here of course. The reason: It sounds to me like philosophic dualism has gotten mixed into theology. Philosophic dualism says that all matter in the universe is corrupt-even newborns. The "only" good exists in the spiritual realm. Dualists would say that nothing a human does, thinks, believes, speaks or anything else could ever be good because we are inescapably made of matter. When these ideas are inserted into scripture, what you get is the idea that the works in Ephesians 2:8-9 is anything at all that you do. "God does everything, we do nothing". There is variation within the protestant world as to what constitutes a work. I have called different baptist conventions and verified this, this is not speculation. I've heard that some go so far as to say that the sinner's prayer is a work.

[javajo]

I would like to use another passage from Titus 3:

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

So lets break this down. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but Jesus, God our Saviour's kindness, love and mercy and the new birth and the Holy Spirit was shed on us abundantly, justifying us by his grace (undeserved, unmerited favor). Notice it says He saved US, the new birth and the Holy Spirit, HE shed on US. God does the saving, we do the receiving. We do not save ourselves by our works, he saves us unto good works.

Then those who have believed (past tense) should do good works which are good and profitable. But strivings about the law are unprofitable and vain. This lines up exactly with Eph. 2:8-10.

[e r.m.]

Yes it does, because neither of them give an example of such a work of rightoeusness or define works. Without defining it and giving a full set of examples, you are vulnerable to any definition anyone gives you. Well, one of those scriptures give 1 clue, but I won't say yet what it is.

[Shermana]

christians were not under the mosaic laws except for the few that were carried over as binding on all mankind...they are the laws such as murder and fornication...these are binding on everyone.

Perhaps the later Christians, but certainly not the original church. Misundersandings about the conflict between Paul and Peter have given this false interpretation that the early Christians were not under the Mosaic Law. This compeltely ignores vast swaths of what Jesus and John says, or twists them into talking about different laws as if they don't intersect or have similarities. Try reading 1 John 3:4-10 and 5:3. Paul clearly said in Romans 3:31 you still follow the Law. Same thing with Romans 2:13. Nowhere does it say you aren't supposed to obey the Law, and I have argued this over many threads.

the way we understand what James is saying is, not that those christians were still under the mosaic law.... but rather that the law about 'love' (the kingly law) would rule out showing favoritism. He is only 'likening' that issue to being a jew under the mosaic law who, if broke one commandment...would be tantamount to transgressing against all the laws.

And there you go again completely ignoring what he said earlier, avoiding my questions about what the word "Panton" means, and if that whole speech is interpreted one big excuse to let you sin. As anyone can see, you are clearly ignoring vast swaths of what he says to reach this interpretation.

So to show favoritism as some were doing, they were transgressing all of the 'kingly law' of love.

And the kingly law of love also includes adultery and murder in the Panton apparently. But those aren't part of the Mosaic Law now they are part of the "Kingly Law of Love". You are welcome to your interpretation as long as you realize this ignores what James says as well as what I said about the word "Panton". James is clearly talking about the Mosaic Law, if you want to believe he suddenly starts talking about another Law, you're welcome to as long as you don't rule out the idea that when you actually read the rest of what he says, it's clearly referring to the Mosaic Law.

James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

You can see the context of what James is saying. He's talking about helping someone who has committed sin to repent and be forgiven. If we go back to verse 14 it says:

Exactly. Now what are the sins of this "Law of love" that James is telling them to repent from? Only showing favoritism? What is the need to repent? From what? Where is the list of sins that one is to repent from? What happens if they don't repent?

14 Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him...Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed

So once again, where is the list of sins that one has to repent from? If you believe the only sin he's talking about is showing favoritism, you are welcome to your opinion.

[quote]

So the 'mulitude of sins covered' has to do with being in good standing with God. Salvation is only possible to those who are in good standing, and if someone was concealing sins and committing sins, they are not in a good standing with God. So James is urging the brothers to confess their sins and get healed spiritually.
Paul wrote to Timothy about something similar...he wrote:

Okay, so sins just makes you not in good standing. Where is the list of these sins? Where does it say that this has nothing to do with Salvation when he clearly says you are jusftied BY works. We can ignore he other issues that you didn't go over for now.

1Timothy 4:16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your taching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you

Wait, you Save yourself by obeying such teachings? Hmmm...there's that effort and obedience and legalism coming in again, you can't escape it if you try!

If a sinner repents and listens, he will be saved... as will the teacher who is promoting Gods laws and helping others to walk in them.

Repents from what? Where is this list of G-d's laws? If the Mosaic Law is done away, why even forbid gentiles from drinking blood? That's pretty Mosaic.

[javajo]

I would like to use another passage from Titus 3:

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

So lets break this down. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but Jesus, God our Saviour's kindness, love and mercy and the new birth and the Holy Spirit was shed on us abundantly, justifying us by his grace (undeserved, unmerited favor). Notice it says He saved US, the new birth and the Holy Spirit, HE shed on US. God does the saving, we do the receiving. We do not save ourselves by our works, he saves us unto good works.

Then those who have believed (past tense) should do good works which are good and profitable. But strivings about the law are unprofitable and vain. This lines up exactly with Eph. 2:8-10. __________________
Eternal life is a free gift!