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  #1  
Old 03-28-2005, 10:52 AM
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Question Why the difference..
...between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God?

One big problem I have is God testing Abraham. That definitely doesn't fit in with the NT idea of God. God knew Abraham was faithful, because God know everything, so why test him?

I just have trouble reconciling the two. It seems like they're almost two different gods!
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2005, 12:37 PM
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I really don't see them as that different. God demanded absolute obedience in the OT, and thus, "tested" Abraham to demonstrate His desire for this. Jesus demanded the same. God is a God of love in the NT that cares for His people (well, love is our best term, but it's still a metaphor). In the Old Testament, God is "the LORD God who brought you out of the land of Egypt," who sent prophets to correct His people before punishment can come, and actively worked to help His people even if He was the only party upholding the covenant.

In the NT we see Jesus doing the same thing, and further, read some of the letters. Some people are rainless clouds, broods of vipers, men that should castrate themselves, and ultimately destined for eternal punishment. Jesus came because God loved the world. Christ demands total obedience.

This is one of those things that I see the NT and OT being very similar. This is only natural, though, since it means that we disagree
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  #3  
Old 03-28-2005, 12:39 PM
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You're not the only one Prima, the ancient Gnostics actually believed that they were two different gods. The OT God being a flawed, evil, arrogant minor god. The NT God being the True God.
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Old 03-28-2005, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prima

One big problem I have is God testing Abraham. That definitely doesn't fit in with the NT idea of God. God knew Abraham was faithful, because God know everything, so why test him?
More to the point, i think that Abraham had to have known that HaShem would never allow the sacrafice to take place because Abraham had a very personal relationship with HaShem had must have known that He would never have allowed it to happen.

Perhaps they both did it because they both knew. Abraham knew that HaShem would never allow child sacrafices and HaShem knew that Abraham was a righteous man and would submit to His will and commandments.

Also it could be that it is yet another example of, as No*s pointed out, HaShem's desire to have us serve Him as both His followers and loving children.
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  #5  
Old 03-28-2005, 01:00 PM
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I think God knew that abraham was loyal and knew him, but he wanted Abraham to realize that about himself.
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:41 PM
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More to the point, i think that Abraham had to have known that HaShem would never allow the sacrafice to take place because Abraham had a very personal relationship with HaShem had must have known that He would never have allowed it to happen.

Perhaps they both did it because they both knew. Abraham knew that HaShem would never allow child sacrafices and HaShem knew that Abraham was a righteous man and would submit to His will and commandments.
So then what was the point?!if they both knew, why do it? why bother? what was there to prove?

Quote:
I think God knew that abraham was loyal and knew him, but he wanted Abraham to realize that about himself.
Again...why?! Is there any particular reason why God had to do it in such a painful way? Even assuming that Abraham knew...why put Issac through that?!

Quote:
... and further, read some of the letters. Some people are rainless clouds, broods of vipers, men that should castrate themselves, and ultimately destined for eternal punishment. Jesus came because God loved the world. Christ demands total obedience.
But that's the phrase I have trouble with: eternal punishment. It's true that in some of the letters punishment is mentioned - but not nearly to the extent of the OT. The NT emphasizes a loving God, the OT emphasizes a God with rules and punishment. If God is so loving, why the punishment? supposedly God forgives everything, so why punish? Isn't the pain that comes out of the sin punishment enough?

Also, Christ doesn't demand total obediance. Christ emphasized free will - that we can do what we want, but that He and God want us to obey them, because it's what's best for us.(now granted, most of this is not from the Gospels, seeing as how He didn't talk about Himself much)
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2005, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prima
It's true that in some of the letters punishment is mentioned - but not nearly to the extent of the OT. The NT emphasizes a loving God, the OT emphasizes a God with rules and punishment. If God is so loving, why the punishment? supposedly God forgives everything, so why punish? Isn't the pain that comes out of the sin punishment enough?
on the contrary i find HaShem to be a very loving and forgiving Being for those who come to Him sincerely, as the Rambam says..."repentence acts as a shield..."
Though HaShem punishes for man's transgression He is always quick to forgive...now of course this is my interpretation of the Torah i KNOW people out there are going to disagree with me on that but that's their right.
Quote:
Christ emphasized free will...
As does HaShem...
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:58 PM
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  #9  
Old 03-28-2005, 02:01 PM
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on the contrary i find HaShem to be a very loving and forgiving Being for those who come to Him sincerely, as the Rambam says..."repentence acts as a shield..."
Though HaShem punishes for man's transgression He is always quick to forgive...now of course this is my interpretation of the Torah i KNOW people out there are going to disagree with me on that but that's their right.
But you still haven't told me...if he's loving and forgiving, why does he punish?
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:01 PM
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One thing that may help is to remember the Prophets spoke of the same God as the one that tested Abraham. The most common complaint in the Prophets was that the people were eating up the widows and the orphans, being unjust, and generally abusing people. The two chief commandments Christ mentioned in the Law had long been taught as such before that.

When we apply that view to Abraham and God, we see in the Prophets that God always provided two solutions for His people. They could work to either conclusion. God tested Abraham to help develop Abraham's character with the test, to reveal something about Himself (look at the mercy with the ram in the thicket), and to demonstrate Abraham's character through the test. It really does seem a lot like the NT .
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