Jesus is not God (attending, doctrine, church, scriptures, bible)

andy · #1 03-13-2005, 08:18 AM

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

michel · #2 03-13-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

Thanks for sharing that, andy; what a nice wedding present from your wife!

No*s · #3 03-13-2005, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

Are you wanting people to try and support the Deity of Christ from Scripture? I'm not sure what you want us to do here.

EDIT:

I just realized I didn't greet you, so welcome to the forums

. You should head over to the introductions area and let us do it formally.

linwood · #4 03-13-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No*s

Are you wanting people to try and support the Deity of Christ from Scripture? I'm not sure what you want us to do here.

I`m not sure what Andy wants No*s but I`d like to hear Biblical support for the diety of Jesus.

No*s · #5 03-13-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linwood

I`m not sure what Andy wants No*s but I`d like to hear Biblical support for the diety of Jesus.

I'll wait and see what Andy wants before putting it on this thread, but if he doesn't want debate on that issue, I'll post a thread on the issue or the like, explaining where I see that in Scripture. Tis forthcoming now

.

andy · #6 03-13-2005, 03:52 PM

Exactly my point is the deity of jesus, Jesus is not God. I was a non-believer and had a mind of show me when I first read the Bible. At no time when I read the Bible thought that Jesus was ever God from reading the scriptures. It was when I atteneded main stream Church I was introduced to the Trinity and the idea Jesus was God. The Bible does not teach Jesus is God but man doctrine. Hope this helps in your questions to my thread.

Scuba Pete · #7 03-13-2005, 04:19 PM

Philippians 2:5. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

This one passage is clear enough for me. Jesus is God incarnate, and that is right from the scriptures.

No*s · #8 03-13-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy

Exactly my point is the deity of jesus, Jesus is not God. I was a non-believer and had a mind of show me when I first read the Bible. At no time when I read the Bible thought that Jesus was ever God from reading the scriptures. It was when I atteneded main stream Church I was introduced to the Trinity and the idea Jesus was God. The Bible does not teach Jesus is God but man doctrine. Hope this helps in your questions to my thread.

You know, I had almost the opposite experience

. I gathered that Jesus was God from reading the Scripture, and then had some errors on the Trinity straightened out by other Christians.

I have a debate about John 1.1, so I won't repeat a rather lengthy argument here

.

However, for other Scriptures, I would like to add my personal favorite Phil. 2.5-11 as a starter. It doesn't argue for the Deity of Christ. It assumes it to teach a moral lesson. Paul starts by saying "have the mind of Christ," which literally means "have Christ's mind in you," and not some metaphorical "think like Christ."

It then asserts that Christ had the form of God, and that He didn't consider "equality with God" something to be exploited. Rival translations would be "something to be grasped," meaning that He didn't hang onto it tightly to prevent loss, and another "robbery," which indicates that Christ considered it something rightfully His. In all three cases, it requires the view of Christ as God to comprehend.

The rest of the verse goes on to explain how He humiliated Himself, died, and has been given the highest name (yperypsoo denotes exalting to the highest category). There is no way to interpret this verse without ascribing Deity to Christ as St. Paul's intention.

Another key verse is Col. 1.15-16. Here, Christ is the image of God, and that He is the "firstborn" over all creation, which would be the only problematic phrase in the whole verse. However, the firstborn inherits everything from their Father, and Christ was "begotten" of the Father, and has everything. However, in 1.16, we find all things were created by Christ (there is no "other" in the verse), and St. Paul goes to great lengths to explain that it is total: [color]in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.[/color] Christ, clearly, is the First Cause, the Creator of the Universe, according to St. Paul.

However, as a first set of arguments, this post is probably getting lengthy. I'd like to close (and offer more later if you want them) by pointing out that the Bible is a Trinitarian book. There was no closed book called the Bible for hundreds of years. Instead, Christian bishops kept assigning different books as authoritative, and it gradually coalesced into the canon of Scripture (canon being the term for a Church law BTW). The people that finally determined this were all Trinitarians who believed in the Deity of Christ, and the majority spoke, read, and wrote Greek natively. Heck, the first person to propose the modern NT was St. Athanasius, the champion of the Council of Nicea

.

may · #9 03-13-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

Yes Jesus is not God.

Jesus

Christ

Definition: The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation"; Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi´ach (Messiah), meaning "Anointed One

linwood · #10 03-13-2005, 04:28 PM

Philippians 2:5. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

NetDoc, what translation are you using for that quote?
NIV?

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Technically we`re all in the "form" or nature of God aren`t we?

It goes on....

2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

I don`t know why God would highly exalt himself or give himself a name.

At best I`d say this chapter could go eiether way depending upon how you read it.