Holy Wars, Crusades, Created by God, or by men? (beliefs, followers)

[TripleHelix]

What do you think?
Did men create these wars at the Will of God, or did they simply wage humanistic wars?
It is my belief that all Holy Wars, provoked by men and not God, will fail.

[Master Vigil]

I feel holy wars were not gods command. And were formed from human egotistical arrogance and greed.

[Saw11_2000]

^I feel the same way, just except I don't believe they were created by God, because God does not exist, in my thinking.

[robtex]

All wars are created by men. It is one of the greatest travesties that man tortures, kills, maims rapes, steals and humiliates those of another culture led by the inspriation of their war Gods, modern or ancient.

A God that is all powerful or at least as powerful as required to make a world does not need a tribe of followers to kill on his behalf to invoke change. A God that can create things via his will does not need man to shape what he has created.

For every man killed in the name of God's today yesterday and tomarrow there is a person with an ulteior motive and a need for a justification. Maybe it's not the guy carrying the gun or the sword but there is a gain for someone and the gain was factored in. Blaming God for an aciton done by mankind makes as much sense as blaming man for a disater done by nature.

If you kill your neighbor because his/her beliefs were different, raped a village woman, murdered a village child or stolen a person' land and belongs on differnces in belief...than you chose to do take what your God has given that person and you are the only person responsible for that deed.

[TripleHelix]

True to a point. What about trying to defend your religion? Think about it, when the Original Crusades were launched, they were because the Muslims to the East, who were once peaceful and productive were overthrown by their converts, the Turks. Then they won so much land that they finally had to wage war. What do you think of a situation like that?

[robtex]

Originally Posted by TripleHelix

True to a point. What about trying to defend your religion? Think about it, when the Original Crusades were launched, they were because the Muslims to the East, who were once peaceful and productive were overthrown by their converts, the Turks. Then they won so much land that they finally had to wage war. What do you think of a situation like that?

Than that is your justification. the defense of your religion. Not of your god. Truth be told if your god is so powerful and awe inspiring should he be protecting you not the other way around?

[Quoth The Raven]

Originally Posted by robtex

Than that is your justification. the defense of your religion. Not of your god. Truth be told if your god is so powerful and awe inspiring should he be protecting you not the other way around?

Think of Job. He was pretty much the most devout guy around and he was still tested, wasn't he. If you'll fight in defence of your religion then you must truly believe it. God isn't sticking up for you because you need to be out there proving that you believe.
If you're having a stoush because God told you to, well, half the time God's been in the ear of the other bloke as well. So you have 2 opposing teams,both doing Gods will. Either God's playing both ends against the middle, or both sides are just looking for an excuse and the big fella is handy.

[Green Gaia]

There is no religion which advocates war. Whenever war is being waged in the name of religion, you can be assured that religion is being perverted and used as a rallying cry for the masses.

[may]

The Crusades and their failure should have taught that economic greed and desire for political prominence can lead to fanaticism and massacre. But the lesson has been ignored. The evidence lies in the many conflicts that have continued to stain many parts of our planet with blood. In these, religion often serves as a front for abominations.

Not for much longer though. Very soon the spirit that fostered the Crusades and that continues to foster modern-day "holy" wars will pass away along with all false religion and the whole system subject to the domination of Satan.—Psalm 46:8, 9; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 18:4, 5, 24.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by TripleHelix

What do you think?
Did men create these wars at the Will of God, or did they simply wage humanistic wars?
It is my belief that all Holy Wars, provoked by men and not God, will fail.

No, I don't believe the Crusades were the will of God. The Crusades came as a result of the Roman Emperor calling for help against Turkish invaders (Constantinople would eventually fall to them). Nothing came of it initially, but the Muslims began systematically killing Christian pilgrams and destroying holy sites to compound the odd invasion. The need for some defense and the killing of pilgrams coupled together for the Pope to give a call, and the armies to be raised.

The cheiftans of the Germanic tribes in Western Europe saw a pretty good chance to make some cash, so they took off to conquer the Holy Land. When they got there, they setup shop and formed nice little kingdoms, and made war against others in the same way they did in Western Europe, namely sign a peace treaty while you raise an army to kill your neighbor .

In the end, it wasn't just Muslims who were killed by Crusaders, but Eastern Christians (both Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian) and Jews. Their sacking of Constantinople is a large part of what finally put the nail in the Roman Empire's coffin. Thus, the Crusades weren't exactly a "Christianity vs. Islam" thing. I tend to view it as a "religious" war with the purpose of exporting Western European politics of the time to other lands.