The Myths of Christianity

[MurphtheSurf]

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal

What is the origin of the myth?
“The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.

What does the Bible say?
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version.
Regarding the creation of the first human soul, the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh].”—Genesis 2:7

The Hebrew word ne´phesh, translated “soul,” means ‘a creature that breathes.’ When God created the first man, Adam, He did not infuse into him an immortal soul but the life force that is maintained by breathing. Therefore, “soul” in the Biblical sense refers to the entire living being. If separated from the life force originally given by God, the soul dies.—Genesis 3:19; Ezekiel 18:20.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul raised questions: Where do souls go after death? What happens to the souls of the wicked? When nominal Christians adopted the myth of the immortal soul, this led them to accept another myth—the teaching of hellfire.
Compare these Bible verses: Ecclesiastes 3:19; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23



From: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20091101/article_02.htm

FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

[MurphtheSurf]

Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell

What is the origin of the myth? “Of all classical Greek philosophers, the one who has had the greatest influence on traditional views of Hell is Plato.”—Histoire des enfers (The History of Hell), by Georges Minois, page 50.
“From the middle of the 2nd century AD Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms . . . The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism [the teachings of Plato].”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 25, page 890.

“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.”—Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, page 270.
What does the Bible say? “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, . . . for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Revised Standard Version.
The Hebrew word Sheol, which referred to the “abode of the dead,” is translated “hell” in some versions of the Bible. What does this passage reveal about the condition of the dead? Do they suffer in Sheol in order to atone for their errors? No, for they “know nothing.” That is why the patriarch Job, when suffering terribly because of a severe illness, begged God: “Protect me in hell [Hebrew, Sheol].” (Job 14:13; Douay-Rheims Version) What meaning would his request have had if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased.
Is not this definition of hell more logical and in harmony with Scripture? What crime, however horrible, could cause a God of love to torture a person endlessly? (1 John 4:8) But if hellfire is a myth, what about heaven?
Compare these Bible verses: Psalm 146:3, 4; Acts 2:25-27; Romans 6:7, 23
FACT:

God does not punish people in hell

[ATAT]

Both Judaism and Christianity believe the soul is eternal.

Christianity believes in hell, Judaism, for the most part does not.

As for eternal existence, I often wonder if the reason we go to sleep every day is to prepare us for non-existence, death.

We dream? Not that much, only about 5 minutes for every 90 minute sleep cycle, the rest of the time we might as well be in a coma.

I used to be anxious about ceasing to exist at some point in the future.

But it has never bothered me that I didn't exist infinitely into the past.

If eternal life is needed for meaning, why is eternal life into the past not important to meaning?

I think there is meaning in the moment, the first kiss of a young couple, that's meaningful... even if the young couple grow old, die together, and their children's children's children have forgotten who they were, nevertheless, that kiss was important. There's nothing that says that things have to be permanent to be important.

I don't know if our souls are eternal. I am suspicious that, even in hell, my soul is supposed to be indestructable, like I'm some sort of god or something.

Suppose there is a God, He's given us no clear knowledge that we will live on forever, whether in heaven OR hell.

Let's take a look at what we're telling God when we insist that there must be a heaven:


Imagine you have a dog, Charlie. You pick his parents, put them together, Charlie is born.

You take care of him, nurture him, feed him, love him, train him, teach him not to poop in the house, you build a close relationship with Charlie.

Years later, beloved Charlie goes to sleep at the foot of your bed, only to wake with an illness.

Charlie is about to die.

Suddenly, and angel of God grants Charlie the ability to talk!


"Well, I'm going to miss you. When do I get my rewards?" says Charlie.

"What rewards?" you ask.

"You know, my eternal rewards that must be waiting for me." says Charlie.

"I'm sorry, there's no eternal reward, Charlie. This life is the only life you will have."

"What?? This is all? This is all there is? That means my life has been meaningless!"

Can you imagine your dog really feeling that way, every day, not focused on this life, but mainly acting out of some expectation that if he can just get through this life with you, his real life, his 'good' life will start later?

How would you feel?

I'd feel somehow cheated.

Imagine you read your wife's diary and discover she longingly looks forward to the next marriage where she'll get a meaningful husband, but for now, she's 'putting up' with you, only on the basis that she'll get a better husband in the future.

Or your kids, imagine they secretly believed they'll get a good father figure some day, that they must endure you until that good day comes.

I think somehow we cheat God if we cheapen this world by saying and thinking there must be a better world to come.

I wouldn't like it if my kids said that about the presents I gave them, I wouldn't like it if anyone said that about my gifts to them, my interactions with them.

I'm not saying this proves there is no heaven, no.

Rather, I suspect it's insulting to God that we just automatically conclude that this world He gave us is not good enough to count for anything, that all I can do all day long is act on the basis that some day I'll get a world that is better, much better, one that is finally good enough for me.

I suspect that if there is a God, we need to focus more on this life, and I mean we should participate in it fully, meaninfullly, reserve all of our meaning seeking for here. If there is a God, I suspect that's what He wants us to do, be moral here, and put meaning *into* this life, not cheapen this life by concluding this life somehow is not good enough.

[MurphtheSurf]

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
It has been a long time since I've seen a well thought out response from any agnostic.
I'm afraid that the other agnostics here are not as thoughtful, just combative.

[Dunemeister]

The immortality of the soul is not so much borrowed from Greek philosophy as required by the doctrine of the resurrection. The continuity of the soul is what metaphysically underpins the notion that when I die, I can expect to be resurrected. If the soul -- however we understand it -- perishes at death, then when resurrection occurs, the "I" that died will not be the "I" that rises. It will only be a cunning facsimile. The notion of the immortality of the soul gets around this problem by saying that there is something that survives death and provides the continuity/unity between the person who dies and the person who rises.

Admittedly, none of this is spelled out in Christian scripture. But we can see this discussion developing almost from the get-go among Christians, and lots of speculation on this appears in Jewish writing as well.

As for hell, I certainly hope that that's a myth. Unfortunately, I doubt it.

[ATAT]

Why would God make a hell, what good would that serve?

Nobody argues we existed infinitely into the past, we were created at some point.

Pascal's Wager = "Why take a chance, let's all be Catholic (as Pascal argued) and eliminate the huge danger of burning for eternity?" Limitted life of hedonistic pleasure on earth vs the chance at eternal happiness or eternal suffering in hell if you're wrong.


Well, perhaps there's a real hell, but it's only for people who are think they are better than non-religious because God spoke to their leader and therefore, let's do what the Voice tells us to do, no matter what.

God tells you to kill a child. God really really tells you to kill a child. It's not a brain disease, it's not someone claiming monotheism to seize unified power and not have to share it with the priests of the other gods, but let's say God really really tells you to kill a child, everyone around you agrees, they saw the miracle, you clearly have been told, by God, to kill a child.

Would you do it?

Why not, God makes everything, including the child!

Well, here's why not:

God didn't make us to murder innocent children.

If you believe in the bible, Cain murdered someone innocent, and was punished, no voice command telling him not to kill the innocent brother.

So, why follow a command against our built-in morality?

To get rewards, to be with God and bask in His goodness forever and ever?

Really? If that's not a reductio ad absurdum argument, then nothing is. I think we can agree it's absurd to murder children just to get rewards, even if they are blissful, enjoyable, meaningful quality time spent with the real God.

To avoid burning in hell forever.

OK, I'm the first to admit, you bring a blow torch anywhere near my toes, I've got only one question for you, "Do you only want me to murder this one child? I can get more if you like, how many can I bring you?"

But take away the blow torch, take away the fact that anyone will do anything under torture, give me back my free will, I say it's wrong to murder the innocent, even if God tells me to do so.

Ah, God 'own's these children? Well, yes. Sure. But that same God is keeping them alive!
Why do I need to stick the knife and interfere with the blood circulation when God is pumping the blood at this very moment? If God tells me to kill the child, then God is fighting God, because God is the one keeping the child alive.

Obviously, if God tells me to kill an innocent child, it's a test.

Or I have a brain disease, which would be the real answer, or I'm a meglamoniacle maniac who will order the death of children for my own personal political desires, but let's pretend a perfectly good God could give such a command.

If God really commanded such an obviously terrible thing, ordering me to kill a child, and my only motivation to do so is to save my own soul, then if I murder an innocent to save my soul, I've OBVIOUSLY FAILED THE TEST.

The real test, then, was to see if I'd do evil for my own gain.

If I am willing to do evil, just to save my soul, then THEN I should go to hell, if any exists.


That would be just. (well, an infinite hell would be improper, punishment like that is not punishment, it's just torture. There's nothing to be gained by hell. Punishment should reform or destroy the problem but an ongoing hell serves neither of those points. Hell would be an evil creation, because it serves no good purpose. We agree torturing someone is evil, therefore, an infinite hell would be infinitely evil. Rude thing to suggest about God Who gave us so much goodness and family and food and joy. Very disrespectful. A woman burns her child's hand so the child will hug cry and hug her. Jail or mental institution? I don't know. "God, you're a child abuser, only worse." = Very rude to the Creator of the Universe.

Numbers 31:
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


Why kill all the boys?

God tells Abraham to sacrifice his innocent son, Isaac.

I think Abraham failed the test.

The proper reply should have been, "I can't, he's innocent of any crime, that would be murder, and you made murder wrong as proven by the punishment of Cain who murdered his innocent brother."


I think that if there's a hell, then the most likely way to get there is to murder in the name of God to save your soul from that very hell.

Uphold murder, uphold the Voice telling men to murder innocent children from time to time in the name of religion, you risk going to hell.

Shouldn't we fear God and follow morality instead of giving power to this 'Voice' that lead men to murder?

After all, God made the 'Voice' no less than He made the stars and goats and trees. I can't worship those, either.

What makes this 'Voice' He created any different?

It's just another created thing.

You wouldn't pray to the Voice itself, right?

So why invest it with so much power, the power over life and death.

And you can't exclude brain diseases (which God also made) and political perversion, leaders claiming God spoke to them but really it's for political ends.

I fear hell is for the religious.

[logician]

Originally Posted by ATAT

Why would God make a hell, what good would that serve?

Nobody argues we existed infinitely into the past, we were created at some point.

Pascal's Wager = "Why take a chance, let's all be Catholic (as Pascal argued) and eliminate the huge danger of burning for eternity?" Limitted life of hedonistic pleasure on earth vs the chance at eternal happiness or eternal suffering in hell if you're wrong.


Well, perhaps there's a real hell, but it's only for people who are think they are better than non-religious because God spoke to their leader and therefore, let's do what the Voice tells us to do, no matter what.

God tells you to kill a child. God really really tells you to kill a child. It's not a brain disease, it's not someone claiming monotheism to seize unified power and not have to share it with the priests of the other gods, but let's say God really really tells you to kill a child, everyone around you agrees, they saw the miracle, you clearly have been told, by God, to kill a child.

Would you do it?

Why not, God makes everything, including the child!

Well, here's why not:

God didn't make us to murder innocent children.

If you believe in the bible, Cain murdered someone innocent, and was punished, no voice command telling him not to kill the innocent brother.

So, why follow a command against our built-in morality?

To get rewards, to be with God and bask in His goodness forever and ever?

Really? If that's not a reductio ad absurdum argument, then nothing is. I think we can agree it's absurd to murder children just to get rewards, even if they are blissful, enjoyable, meaningful quality time spent with the real God.

To avoid burning in hell forever.

OK, I'm the first to admit, you bring a blow torch anywhere near my toes, I've got only one question for you, "Do you only want me to murder this one child? I can get more if you like, how many can I bring you?"

But take away the blow torch, take away the fact that anyone will do anything under torture, give me back my free will, I say it's wrong to murder the innocent, even if God tells me to do so.

Ah, God 'own's these children? Well, yes. Sure. But that same God is keeping them alive!
Why do I need to stick the knife and interfere with the blood circulation when God is pumping the blood at this very moment? If God tells me to kill the child, then God is fighting God, because God is the one keeping the child alive.

Obviously, if God tells me to kill an innocent child, it's a test.

Or I have a brain disease, which would be the real answer, or I'm a meglamoniacle maniac who will order the death of children for my own personal political desires, but let's pretend a perfectly good God could give such a command.

If God really commanded such an obviously terrible thing, ordering me to kill a child, and my only motivation to do so is to save my own soul, then if I murder an innocent to save my soul, I've OBVIOUSLY FAILED THE TEST.

The real test, then, was to see if I'd do evil for my own gain.

If I am willing to do evil, just to save my soul, then THEN I should go to hell, if any exists.


That would be just. (well, an infinite hell would be improper, punishment like that is not punishment, it's just torture. There's nothing to be gained by hell. Punishment should reform or destroy the problem but an ongoing hell serves neither of those points. Hell would be an evil creation, because it serves no good purpose. We agree torturing someone is evil, therefore, an infinite hell would be infinitely evil. Rude thing to suggest about God Who gave us so much goodness and family and food and joy. Very disrespectful. A woman burns her child's hand so the child will hug cry and hug her. Jail or mental institution? I don't know. "God, you're a child abuser, only worse." = Very rude to the Creator of the Universe.

Numbers 31:
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


Why kill all the boys?

God tells Abraham to sacrifice his innocent son, Isaac.

I think Abraham failed the test.

The proper reply should have been, "I can't, he's innocent of any crime, that would be murder, and you made murder wrong as proven by the punishment of Cain who murdered his innocent brother."


I think that if there's a hell, then the most likely way to get there is to murder in the name of God to save your soul from that very hell.

Uphold murder, uphold the Voice telling men to murder innocent children from time to time in the name of religion, you risk going to hell.

Shouldn't we fear God and follow morality instead of giving power to this 'Voice' that lead men to murder?

After all, God made the 'Voice' no less than He made the stars and goats and trees. I can't worship those, either.

What makes this 'Voice' He created any different?

It's just another created thing.

You wouldn't pray to the Voice itself, right?

So why invest it with so much power, the power over life and death.

And you can't exclude brain diseases (which God also made) and political perversion, leaders claiming God spoke to them but really it's for political ends.

I fear hell is for the religious.

I really don't see the point of this post, we weren't created, we evolved, by sheer random change.

[MurphtheSurf]

ATAT, your thoughts are valid but your posts are way too long with many aspects and avenues. If we could just go one point at a time, it could be more beneficial.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by MurphtheSurf

FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

Originally Posted by MurphtheSurf

FACT:

God does not punish people in hell

Facts can be proven; these are opinions.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by MurphtheSurf

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal

What is the origin of the myth?
“The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.
What does the Bible say?
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version.
Regarding the creation of the first human soul, the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh].”—Genesis 2:7

The Hebrew word ne´phesh, translated “soul,” means ‘a creature that breathes.’ When God created the first man, Adam, He did not infuse into him an immortal soul but the life force that is maintained by breathing. Therefore, “soul” in the Biblical sense refers to the entire living being. If separated from the life force originally given by God, the soul dies.—Genesis 3:19; Ezekiel 18:20.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul raised questions: Where do souls go after death? What happens to the souls of the wicked? When nominal Christians adopted the myth of the immortal soul, this led them to accept another myth—the teaching of hellfire.
Compare these Bible verses: Ecclesiastes 3:19; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23
FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

First, define "soul"
Second, prove it exists.