a confused Baha'i looking for answers.

[Lostsoldier]

I am a Baha'i by birth and I recently joined the Armed Services. I would say because of me joining the Armed Services I have been exposed to a very different school of thought than is professed by my family or even other Baha'is.

I didn't start to question my beliefs or faith until my first fast during my military service. It started out great, the first week I loved it. I felt more spiritual than I had in a long time since joining (I had skipped the last once because I was going throught Basic training) Then the next week, I was suddenly extremely angry for having to fast. A lot of my fellow comrades thought fasting was simply stupid, and I was starting to agree with them. I was finally so fed up by the third week that I couldn't take it anymore and I broke the fast. That was the first time I had ever broken the fast.

But this was only the start of my disbelief. I then started to talk to my Dad about the matter, and it only ended up bringing up more questions. Such as

If baha'is believe in the unity of mankind and the choice of religion, why do we prostolotyze it? If I gererally adhere to the laws of the faith (no drinking, gambling, sex before marriage, etc...) why do I have to be a Baha'i if I already live like that?

One thing my granddad told my dad when he was little was "would you be a christian, at the time of christ?" My father thinks so, because he found Baha'u'allah... I was born into the faith, so how do I know when I go through and read the Baha'i proofs of why The Baha'i faith is the answer, THE religion, how do I know that I wasn't just raised to accept those proofs? I feel as though I'm being told the Baha'i faith IS the right answer and if I walked away I will be a heretic, I feel cheated out of finding Baha'u'allah for myself.

This is also a side note; but while in the Armed services I have started to pick up a bias against Islam and Arabs. I came into the Service vary naive, or maybe optomistic, about Islam and Arabs especially. But the Quran, as Baha'is believe, is a holy book and the word of God. But it 4:34 it says you can beat your wife. I've read it both in English and Arabic, the Arabic is clearer than the English I think. I had always heard about what the Quran said about men hitting their wives, but I always thought, or hoped, that it was a bad translation or maybe in context it might make sense but no....

I still believe that Baha'u'allah is who he say he is, but I don't understand why.

[arthra]

Lost soldier,

Thanks for sharing! I will reply to you in italics:

Lostsoldier wrote:

I am a Baha'i by birth and I recently joined the Armed Services. I would say because of me joining the Armed Services I have been exposed to a very different school of thought than is professed by my family or even other Baha'is.

My question to you:

I don't know lost soldier.. but did anyone tell you that we as Baha'is are to seek a non-combatant role?

I didn't start to question my beliefs or faith until my first fast during my military service. It started out great, the first week I loved it. I felt more spiritual than I had in a long time since joining (I had skipped the last once because I was going throught Basic training) Then the next week, I was suddenly extremely angry for having to fast. A lot of my fellow comrades thought fasting was simply stupid, and I was starting to agree with them. I was finally so fed up by the third week that I couldn't take it anymore and I broke the fast. That was the first time I had ever broken the fast.

My reply:

That's too bad.. but it sounds like you began to be swayed by your comrades .. that's really a shame.. I think you allowed yourself to be influenced by them rather than being a good example.. There are as you know always rough periods during fasting when we are more irritable than other times.. these are tests we go through during the fast and in our view opportunities for growth.

But this was only the start of my disbelief. I then started to talk to my Dad about the matter, and it only ended up bringing up more questions. Such as

If baha'is believe in the unity of mankind and the choice of religion, why do we prostolotyze it?

My response:

Baha'is are not supposed to proselytize.. We teach the Faith given the opportunity. Proselytizing is placing undue pressure on people.. and we Baha'is are not suppose to do that under any circumstances.


If I gererally adhere to the laws of the faith (no drinking, gambling, sex before marriage, etc...) why do I have to be a Baha'i if I already live like that?

My reply:

We are Baha'is because we recognize who Baha'u'llah is not because of a life style.. You apparently followed these laws because you were raised a Baha'i. Around the age of fifteen you should have asked if you wished to declare your belief.. in the US that means signing a Declaration Card and declaring your belief. So it is more than just being born into a Baha'i family.

One thing my granddad told my dad when he was little was "would you be a christian, at the time of christ?" My father thinks so, because he found Baha'u'allah... I was born into the faith, so how do I know when I go through and read the Baha'i proofs of why The Baha'i faith is the answer, THE religion, how do I know that I wasn't just raised to accept those proofs?

My comment:

Once again were you asked to declare your beliefs around the age of fifteen or so..? that's the age of maturity when Baha'is raised in Baha'i families are asked to declare tehmselves.. They don't have to but usually they are asked and that's where the principle of independent investigation of truth is essential.


I feel as though I'm being told the Baha'i faith IS the right answer and if I walked away I will be a heretic, I feel cheated out of finding Baha'u'allah for myself.

My comment:

But who cheated you and how come you apparently were never asked to declare yourself?

This is also a side note; but while in the Armed services I have started to pick up a bias against Islam and Arabs. I came into the Service vary naive, or maybe optomistic, about Islam and Arabs especially. But the Quran, as Baha'is believe, is a holy book and the word of God. But it 4:34 it says you can beat your wife. I've read it both in English and Arabic, the Arabic is clearer than the English I think. I had always heard about what the Quran said about men hitting their wives, but I always thought, or hoped, that it was a bad translation or maybe in context it might make sense but no....

My reply:

You have to understand the Qur'anic laws in context of the time for which they were revealed.. The Qur'an doesn't really say men should hit their wives. See A Yusuf Ali translation:

[Yusufali 4:34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

But all this is a irrelevant for us Baha'is as we believe men and women are equal in this day and there is no longer any grounds for beating wives as the law has been abrogated by Baha'u'llah like the law of Jihad, etc.

I still believe that Baha'u'allah is who he say he is, but I don't understand why.

I humbly recommend that you need to go back I think to the Writings and begin deepening yourself. Read and meditate on them when you can. Military life can be lonely but it can also provide you with opportunities to meditate and find yourself..

- Art

[9harmony]

Hi Lostsoldier,

I don't have a lot of time right now...but thought this might be helpful for you regarding Islam and the Quran.

this discussion is going on at Planet Baha'i...where they are going through the Quran verse by verse.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/plane...ges?msg=9404.1

hope that helps.

I'll try to come back soon and respond to some of the issues you raised here.

Take Care!

-Amy

[Lostsoldier]

I know what the faith says about entering the Armed services, but thank you for answering a question to which I didn't ask.

the age of 15 is too early to declare, at least in western civilization. At that age we are still in our comfort zone, we have not been exposed to new schools of thought. At 15 I didn't have any doubt the Baha'i faith was the answer. Now that I've grown up a bit, I do. Would you rather have someone run around, calling themselves a Baha'i, and then question themselves? Or would you have them be a "seeker" and let them come to the Faith on their own terms, when they've been exposed to new ideas?

I think I just now figured out why I've been questioning the Faith.... because I pray, go to feast occasionally, give to the fund, I eve fasted (up until the last fast) and I don't see any benefit from it. Why would I spend any of my time on that, when I can work on being smarter, faster, stronger, wealthier, happier, etc....


Edit: Also, that link you gave me harmony actually skips the passage I wanted to talk about. And Art, it's still the Word of God pardoning the beating of wives. And the (lightly) part isn't actually revealed until later in the Qur'an and I think also in the Hadith. I can give you the verse in Arabic if you'd like. The verb they use is pretty clear.

[arthra]

Thanks for your post!

Lostsoldier wrote:

I know what the faith says about entering the Armed services, but thank you for answering a question to which I didn't ask.

My reply:

Right.. On this Forum it's important to stress I think what the Baha'i position is on military service so people know about it. When registering for the Selective Service at 18 years of age we're to seek non-combatant status and we're also not supposed to volunteer for the military for combat.

the age of 15 is too early to declare, at least in western civilization. At that age we are still in our comfort zone, we have not been exposed to new schools of thought. At 15 I didn't have any doubt the Baha'i faith was the answer. Now that I've grown up a bit, I do. Would you rather have someone run around, calling themselves a Baha'i, and then question themselves? Or would you have them be a "seeker" and let them come to the Faith on their own terms, when they've been exposed to new ideas?

My reply:

The age of fifteen is considered by Baha'is to be the age of maturity when biologically the brain has matured and physically we are closer to young adulthood.. I began questioning religion when I was fourteen and it took some years for me to actually find the Faith and declare that it was right for me..but I began around fourteen years of age.. You can declare at any age of course on your own terms!

Just out of curiosity how old were you when you actually signed a Declaration Card?

I think I just now figured out why I've been questioning the Faith.... because I pray, go to feast occasionally, give to the fund, I eve fasted (up until the last fast) and I don't see any benefit from it. Why would I spend any of my time on that, when I can work on being smarter, faster, stronger, wealthier, happier, etc....

My reply:

The reason we fast is that it was ordained by Baha'u'llah as a spiritual practise and obligation..a time when we're supposed to transcend the idea that we can be smarter, stronger, wealthier, etc. and humble ourselves before God by abstaining from food and liquid from sunrise to sunset..


And Art, it's still the Word of God pardoning the beating of wives. And the (lightly) part isn't actually revealed until later in the Qur'an and I think also in the Hadith. I can give you the verse in Arabic if you'd like. The verb they use is pretty clear.

My reply:

Thanks for yor note.. Baha'is believe the social laws and ordinances of the great religions change.. You might be interested in reading the following article where it states that women can beaten according to Talmudic law for not doing her house work! Read the following:

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Women and men in the Baha'i dispensation are equal and women or children cannot be beaten so this is what is called in our view a progressive developement in social laws.

- Art

[Lostsoldier]

Thank you for the link on Talmudic beliefs. That actually helped more than I thought, when I first read it.

But I'm a little confused as to what the Talmud is? I know the Jewish holy book is the Torah (old-testament). Is the Talmud derived from that? is it like the Hadith in Islam?

P.S. I've been trying to subtly tell you to stop mentioning my Military Service. it is irrelevant, if you think it is relevant say why, not just what the Writings say.

[arthra]

Lost soldier,

The Writings are what really count! If you are deepening in them the questions and anxiety will be answered.

What does a lost soldier do when they're lost? Try to to contact their HQ!

Thank God thou didst become a soldier of life; subdued the domain of hearts with the arms of the love of God and the sword of concord and peace; didst go after the army of the Kingdom of ABHA; followed the Supreme Concourse and by the aid of the Spirit made many conquests.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 148)

What matters is our service to Baha..

- Art

[rcscwc]

Lost, I cannot understand your complaint. If you were drafted, you have NO CHOICE about the duties assigned to you. You may discharge them or revolt, with attendant consequences.

If you were a volanteer, you did it fully well knowing what you were getting into. You opted for some duties, which you should do without reservations, however unpleasant they might be.

Bhagavad Gita might come in handy here. Only Gita can resolve your dilemmas.

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Lostsoldier

[to a third party]: I've been trying to subtly tell you to stop mentioning my Military Service. it is irrelevant....

So sorry, but while you may have decided it's irrelevant now, it's EXTREMELY HARD to ignore it for someone whose screen name is "Lostsoldier!" Like it or not, YOU are proclaiming your status right off the bat every time you post!

Peace,

Bruce

[rcscwc]

Plus, the very first sentence of OP mentions military service.